No the 993 GT2:

 

I tend to agree..

however a few notations:
1. 991 GT3 will not use Mezger engine - it will be interesting to see how high the 9A1 engine will rev...I expectt the new GT3 not to rev as high as the old one..remember that the Mezger engine can do 9500rpm without problems and that the starting red zone of 8500 was set very defensively..the 9a1 enginen has already increased its revs for the 991..but is still missing about 1500rpm..in engine terms these are lightyears..and I dount Porssche can squeeze out from 997 9a1 to 991 9a1 3000 revs out of an engine..

2. Whether the 991 GT3 (basic) will be able to beat a 4.0 in performance...I doubt it very much...the 991 RS GT3...maybe - even so- then just barely..

3. Its clear that the 4.0 is by far more special - limited edidtion..no e-steering - no e-handbrake etc. glorious engine. A normal 991 GT3 will not be in the same category..you will have to wait for special 991 RS editions..

4. Yes price will hold ..I would say...somewhere around -20% of the new price...and then in 20 years it will go to the sky when we are all driving hybrid 150HP 911s...

 

I'll be the first to admit that I love the Mezger and am skeptical of the 9A1, but I think it's important to note a few things:

The Mezger engine is revered by enthusiasts because of its endurance racing roots - it is very robust (along with the GT3 gearbox), which is great for track guys because they can beat on the cars with few issues. The downside is that it's heavy, which hurts performance.

On the RPM front, I'm just curious where the 9500 RPM comment comes from? The racing cars? The 997.2 GT3 had an 8500 RPM redline (vs. 8400 in the 997.1 GT3). Sharkwerks's 3.9 kit does 8800 RPM and produces almost as much peak hp as the factory 4.0, according to Excellence, so perhaps there was a bit more on the table. The powerkit 991 Carrera S produces 430 hp from 3.8 liters, just 5 hp less than the 997.2 GT3 peak, which obviously had a much higher redline, so perhaps the 991 GT3 will only need to wind up to 81XX RPM to achieve sufficient power. I'm actually hopeful that the engine was designed to withstand greater than 8500 RPM in street trim, so there's room for evolution over the next decade.

Will the 991 GT3 be able to beat the RS 4.0 in terms of performance? Hopefully. Straight line is up in the air, but the 991 will likely enjoy lower drag (prototypes have had smaller aero than previous GT3s, the factory aerokit also has a relatively small wing), better gearing due to 7 speeds (not even touching the PDK issue here, my biggest concern), and lower weight, although it will probably have lower power. Around a track, especially the all-important Ring, I would expect it to be very competitive given the stiffer chassis and the sophisticated PDCC, PTV, etc., etc.

Fully agree on desirability. The 4.0 RS is the one to have unless the 991 GT3 can shed the GT character the Carrera and Carrera S have.

 

40k over - no way.

#1 most collectible 997? tough call. I personally would rather DRIVE a 4.0 than any other 997 - but which would i rather collect? that is a different argument. The Sport Classic - the Speedster - very first Launch Edition Cars with NO MILES (05 cars) - the GT2RS - etc.....

I think its tough to tell what cars will be the most collectable this far out - so just buy what you want to drive and end it there

 

Hi Guest/david,

First, great picture you have there..is that an F190 F1 from 1990? one of the most beautiful F1 cars.

Back to the subject..you put in some valid points. 8500 Redline - yes - your are fully correct - but you probably know that after the redline there are 6 stages in the ECU that memorises overrevving. Overrevving for the Mezger engine would be from level 3 - thats already past 9500rpm. I know from Porsche mechanics that they have seen Mezger GT3 engines with over 10,000 rpm - and they were sill running and driving happily. Of course - warranty is gone forever.

Whether there will be a 9A1 that will sustain 9000 without any trouble..? huh...I doubt it seriously..

Yes, the Mezger engine is heavy - thats its only real weakness. But I have met him already a few times..so know a bit of the history too. What is so great about this man is that whatever engine he designed (except for the Footwork 91 F1 Porsche)they all dominated its time and races. Whether it was the TAG Mclaren...or the 962. The succcess the Mezger engine had - can never be repeated by the 9A1...unless it will win races for the next 20 years..

Performanc: We can make a bet here - the 991 will not be able to beat the 4.0 - NO WAY - it still lacks about 50HP, its torque its lower etc..- if the standard GT3 would already be able to beat the 4.0..where would then be a RS 991 or GT2? Remember that Porsches top car will be the 918 - no other Porsche will get close to it in performance. Porsche has announced several times something like 7:22 for the Ring. When the 4.0 came out Porsche was talking of 7:27 if I remember correctly for the 4.0. So you think there could be a 991 GT3 RS with a 7:23 for one fith of the money?

Dont forget that the PDK box also weights 30Kg more..that almost neutralises it..30Kg is 30Kg..

all the best,

 

Yes I'm aware that the engine can tolerate over-revs and still run flawlessly, although like any engine it's susceptible to a money shift (when driven through an H-pattern gearbox). The Mezger is/was great, and although cost is one reason Porsche would be inclined to standardize the 9A1 across the 991 line, I have to believe that Porsche would be forward-thinking enough to ensure that th 9A1 could be developed to compete - and win - in international endurance racing. If not, then there's no reason to build a GT3, in my mind.

As I hinted earlier, the engine is not my greatest concern with the 991 GT3 - they know the hurdle is high, and they need a great engine to win races. If the engine is a winner, then it will almost certainly translate well into the street car - ie, sound good, rev high, be durable, charismatic, etc. My bigger concerns are the gearbox and the 918. The 918 is projected to be heavy, so I struggle to see how a 3500 lb. plus "hypercar" will lap faster, for repeated durations, than a stripped out, simple 911 with rwd and big power. As we all know, Porsche has hamstrung the 986/7/1 platforms to protect the 911, so why wouldn't they do it to the 911 to protect the 918? As for the gearbox, I wouldn't even consider the car if an engaging manual box weren't offered. The GT3 is an admittedly niche product, but they easily sell them out, so why not save at least one variant for the purists, and charge a higher price if need be - people will pay big money for the car? It could base at $150K and there would be no issues. The amount of attention and desire the car attracts from posters on this forum (and others), as well as the world's top motoring journalists is incredible - it is the definitive driver's supercar. It would be a shame for Porsche to screw up something so valuable.

 

Inflation counts you, you should count it.

$150,000 over 25 years with 3% inflation = $314,066.69 (I have the gift of being able to do this in my head..it's weird!)

Using $150,000K number over 25 years and instead you invested it at 6% you would have $643,780.61 (minus inflation)

so the point is, not a great investment but damn fun to drive..what's the other question?

 

Hi guest,

Fully agree..a few more things about the 991 GT3 since you were mentioning it:

1. Porsche tried already with the 997.2 GT3 to install the 9A1 engine - but due to reliability it was not considered..the the first try failed. Now they re standing with their back on the wall - and have to deliver. However, it was their own mistake..if somebody thinks that Porsche will in its first race (with the new engine) be able to beat Ferrari, Corvette etc..you must be a dreamer. History of Motorsport shows that the way to the top is painful..and doenst come overnight. The 991 GT3 will however be largely based on the 9A1 - its major modification needs to be done on the engine block - it doesnt have a real dry sump. Every 9A1 owner knows that driving with slicks on this car is deadly for his engine..

2. Price for the new GT3 will be around 150,000€..so for US buyers it will become quite expensive..and this will only be the basic GT3

3. Im worried about: steering - keep in mind that BMW has taken out of the new M6 the e steering and replaced it with a conventional one. besides, the panamera interior - Bentley like interior - has nothing to do with a GT3

4. Gearbox: both should be offered..whether that will b ethe case..dont know...but I fear for the worst

5 Performance: what can be realistically expected - an example: Sport Auto tested the 997.2S at 7:50 on the ring - the 991S with special tires did 7:44 - however it was 16sec slower in the wet than the 997. So the realistic gain was maybe 3-4 seconds..keep in mind the car also had PDCC which the 997 didnt have. I know I will get massacred here for saying that that the gain was 3-4 seconds...but anybody who can do the math..

6. 918: Porsche will - and cannot allow - that any 991 will immediately beat the 918 in performance. The problem with the 918 is the weight.. When the 959 and the C-GT were there - there was no Porsche model that could top these - or even get close to. I dont think Porsche will dare to ask 800,000$ when the supercar can be beaten 2 weeks later by a "cheap" 991 GT3RS. No company would allow this to undermine its top model..

7. What Im really worried about - and Porsche is getting nervous about this too - how to get down to 160 C02 for its fleet by 2016/17/18..what kind of cars will this be???..this brings us back to the real question -will the 4.0L hold its value - according to me YES - not because Porsche wouldnt be technically be able to built a real successor - but because regulations will not allow such cars anymore in the future..the 918 is the perfect example for this..

I would even see the chance that one day a 918 would be cheaper second hand than a 4.0L...look what happened to the 959..it was my childhood dream..but compared to the F40 its woth alomost nothing anymore..

 

2 recent sales

200 miles white car with ceramics and full leather: $235k
4000 miles white car complete base no options: $225k

The market is good. I get PM's daily from people asking to buy. 3 people now. I know I am biased, and don't know about justifying $40k, but the 4.0 is strong right now. Real strong. And it's been a while since it's release. All the talk about PDK in future cars, etc is fueling the value. And it's rightfully justified.

 

I agree on most everything.

As I said, the engine is the least of my worries compared to the gearbox, the 918, and the steering, which I overlooked in my earlier post.

I have to assume that Porsche planned to race derivations of the 9A1 when developing the engine, so it shouldn't be a surprise to the engineers that they need to add a true dry sump oiling system. Honestly, all 991/981 should have dry sump oiling...

I'm afraid we will be stuck with electric power steering and, at best, the 7MT derived from the PDK 'box. I am hopeful that the dynamic, visceral driving experience carries over from the 997 GT3, and that the overall experience overcomes these issues.

Won't the tie up with VW alleviate the emissions issue? If not, Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti, McLaren, Ferrari, etc. will be in trouble too.

Please keep the information flowing!

Are you considering ordering one?