M Gets Small: BMW Cutting Cylinders for M3 and 1 Series
Apr 26, 2009 | 03:51 PM
#21
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Posts: 2,595
From: ATL
I can stomach a turbocharged engine, so long as it is an amazing overall engine. I am just afraid - along with a LOT of other BMW enthusiasts - that the M cars will no longer be special. The whole appeal of an M car is that it can be comfortably Daily Driven without attracting a lot of attention from non-enthusiasts (unlike, say, a 911; well, at least in a relative comparison), but have world-class race car engineering that can keep up with costlier dedicated sports cars. Just cranking up the boost on the top-of-the line non-M, putting on quad pipes and shadowline trim, a vent on the front fender, and maybe a CF roof won't cut it with enthusiasts. They will lose that market, either to an Audi/Benz/Lexus, etc. attempt to fill that market, or someone like Porsche.
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:15 PM
#22
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 279
[QUOTE=M5Kid;303451] But perhaps they are on the forefront of the power game? I think the cars of current interest to me (the ones in my sig) should answer the handling question?
Bottom line, my guess is 90% of the folks who buy performance cars these days are going to run out of talent long b/f they reach any sports/performance cars capabilities. My preference in sports performance cars will always be high torque large displacement great handling performamce cars even it means more weight. I'm not overly concerned about super light weight for my uses (99% street) in fact I'd rather have a little weight on my side for the guy who runs out of talent with his high reving light weight rocket should I be in the vicinity when it happens? Besides, NOTHING sounds like a V8, V10 or V12. Sorry a 4 or 6 banger just doesn't do it for me. Thats just me, obviously there are a lot of people who feel differently. That's okay by me......
I'll probably have to hang on to the big engined cars for a while since they're being legislated right out of existance much like the 70's.
I'll take large displacemnt, large torque and a growling V8 or V10 over a high reving, low torque lightweight any day./QUOTE]
These attributes generally point to cars that aren't on the forefront of the handling game. I made a general assumption based upon your comments. Was I wrong?
These attributes generally point to cars that aren't on the forefront of the handling game. I made a general assumption based upon your comments. Was I wrong?
Bottom line, my guess is 90% of the folks who buy performance cars these days are going to run out of talent long b/f they reach any sports/performance cars capabilities. My preference in sports performance cars will always be high torque large displacement great handling performamce cars even it means more weight. I'm not overly concerned about super light weight for my uses (99% street) in fact I'd rather have a little weight on my side for the guy who runs out of talent with his high reving light weight rocket should I be in the vicinity when it happens? Besides, NOTHING sounds like a V8, V10 or V12. Sorry a 4 or 6 banger just doesn't do it for me. Thats just me, obviously there are a lot of people who feel differently. That's okay by me......
I'll probably have to hang on to the big engined cars for a while since they're being legislated right out of existance much like the 70's.
Last edited by LRDog; Apr 26, 2009 at 04:18 PM.
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:27 PM
#23
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,595
From: ATL
Bottom line, my guess is 90% of the folks who buy performance cars these days are going to run out of talent long b/f they reach any sports/performance cars capabilities.
My preference in sports performance cars will always be high torque large displacement great handling performamce cars even it means more weight.
I'll probably have to hang on to the big engined cars for a while since they're being legislated right out of existance much like the 70's.
My preference in sports performance cars will always be high torque large displacement great handling performamce cars even it means more weight.
I'll probably have to hang on to the big engined cars for a while since they're being legislated right out of existance much like the 70's.
If that is your preference, then why are you specifically interested in BMW M cars, vs. Corvettes, AMG Benzes, etc.? Just curious.
Sadly, this is also true. And there may not be a revival a decade or so down the line like the last time. This may be it.
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:30 PM
#24
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 279
Same here, I had an M5E39 until last year, the motor was just great! was a wonderful ride luxury and power all in one but now that I´ve got the new M3 E92 with DCT I´m fascinated with the power and the sound of the car! It´s heavier, yes but it does have 20 BHP more than the S62 and 77 BHP more than the old M3 and has only 105 kg more. put it all together and you get a car that runs 0,6 secs. faster to 60 mph and is going to be the last real n.a. V8 M ever builds!
I know why I bought mine
I´m also for light weight but smaller engines
We have a saying over here: better 1000kg than 1000 HP. I truly hated the M3 E92 when it first came out until I actually got to "Drive" the car as it was meant to be.. it changed my opinion instantly. Audi ?? dunno what they want to do but look at AMG! they switched from supercharged v8´s to n.a. V8´s and even larger motors; 6,2 ltrs. And the boss of AMG even said we wont be looking to downsize the engines in the future but rather have the weight come off of the cars.
As for soul, get into any V8 and take it for a spin on a nice free highway or even a nice long - tunnel -
and tell me that a six banger has more soul..
If the car runs better than the previous generation, hell why not I´ll take it!
& BTW nothing beats a V8 IMO unless it´s a V12
& yes any turbo on any M is just crap IMO!!
yeah, thats why the new M3 has absolutely no insulation what so ever under the bonnet, in the door frames and wheel archs.. dude get your facts right
I know why I bought mine
I´m also for light weight but smaller engines
We have a saying over here: better 1000kg than 1000 HP. I truly hated the M3 E92 when it first came out until I actually got to "Drive" the car as it was meant to be.. it changed my opinion instantly. Audi ?? dunno what they want to do but look at AMG! they switched from supercharged v8´s to n.a. V8´s and even larger motors; 6,2 ltrs. And the boss of AMG even said we wont be looking to downsize the engines in the future but rather have the weight come off of the cars.As for soul, get into any V8 and take it for a spin on a nice free highway or even a nice long - tunnel -
and tell me that a six banger has more soul..If the car runs better than the previous generation, hell why not I´ll take it!
& BTW nothing beats a V8 IMO unless it´s a V12
& yes any turbo on any M is just crap IMO!!yeah, thats why the new M3 has absolutely no insulation what so ever under the bonnet, in the door frames and wheel archs.. dude get your facts right
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:38 PM
#25
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,188
From: Oregon
Bottom line, my guess is 90% of the folks who buy performance cars these days are going to run out of talent long b/f they reach any sports/performance cars capabilities. My preference in sports performance cars will always be high torque large displacement great handling performamce cars even it means more weight. I'm not overly concerned about super light weight for my uses (99% street) in fact I'd rather have a little weight on my side for the guy who runs out of talent with his high reving light weight rocket should I be in the vicinity when it happens? Besides, NOTHING sounds like a V8, V10 or V12. Sorry a 4 or 6 banger just doesn't do it for me. Thats just me, obviously there are a lot of people who feel differently. That's okay by me......
I'll probably have to hang on to the big engined cars for a while since they're being legislated right out of existance much like the 70's.
I'll probably have to hang on to the big engined cars for a while since they're being legislated right out of existance much like the 70's.
What I think I would rather see is them do is go ahead with a focused M1, as well as a lightweight (CSL) M3, and stick with their approach on the M5, M6, X5/6 M, and Z4 M. The big question regarding the proposed M3 CSL would be what motor? Do you stick with the V8 (which, if I remember correctly is lighter than its predecessor), or go with a turbo six?
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:40 PM
#26
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 279
True; but all too often sports car purchases are emotional, aspirational decisions. People want lightweight cars because they are more representative of real racing cars, because they want to know that they could lap the car on the Nordschleife, because they want other people to think that they are "serious" car enthusiasts, because they want to impress people on Teamspeed, etc.
I guess my CLK63 Black Series doesn't fit any of those? I love the engineering and the road feel of all the cars we currently own. They just don't have to be super light high reving to make me feel like I'm in a race car. I like some comfort with my high performance.I'm afraid it is true.... I just hope the next target isn't cars that are already out there.......
Last edited by LRDog; Apr 26, 2009 at 04:46 PM. Reason: I love 928s......
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:45 PM
#27
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 279
I completely understand where you're coming from. And, in all honesty, a heavier car with usable torque (and room) is my preference for a street application. My point was that I believe BMW is striving to restore a certain visceral experience in their cars - one that can only be obtained through lightweight, quick steering racks, and engaging and high-revving motors. I'm not sure whether or not it's a smart move.
What I think I would rather see is them do is go ahead with a focused M1, as well as a lightweight (CSL) M3, and stick with their approach on the M5, M6, X5/6 M, and Z4 M. The big question regarding the proposed M3 CSL would be what motor? Do you stick with the V8 (which, if I remember correctly is lighter than its predecessor), or go with a turbo six?
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:51 PM
#28
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,595
From: ATL
I guess my CLK63 Black Series doesn't fit any of those? I love the engineering and the road feel of all the cars we currently own. They just don't have to be super light high reving to make me feel like I'm in a race car. I like some comfort with my high performance.I'm not specifically interested in any car. I like a lot of cars currently on the market. Audis, Porsches, Maseratis (F cars just to showy IMO of course) and AMGs........ I also like the Z06 and the ZR1. I also really like the current M cars.... I guess I'm not a brand snob, I like them all?
I'm afraid it is true.... I just hope the next target isn't cars that are already out there.......
I'm not trying to paint you as a brand snob at all; it just seemed to me that you were looking for something in the "wrong" place (my inference) and perhaps overlooking a venerable provider of that kind of driving experience.
Apr 26, 2009 | 04:53 PM
#29
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Posts: 2,595
From: ATL
Yes; controversial source of contention since the production car had the I-6. They were forced to homologate a handful of M3-GTR's to rectify the situation, IIRC.
Apr 26, 2009 | 05:19 PM
#30
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,188
From: Oregon
I don't think the future direction has anything to do with restoring a visceral experience, I think it's called CAFE....... They have to in order to hit overall gas mileage requirements for upcoming years and a high reving small displacement motor with a turbocharger/supercharger is about the only way to accomplish this.
I'm not so sure CAFE has anything to do with it. The legislation calculates the mean fuel economy of manufacturer fleets for sale. It seems to me that if a manufacturer was concerned about meeting its obligations in 2020 per the Energy Independence and Security Act, they could focus on fuel efficiency in their non-M cars. And the technology is there, manufacturers can make efficient (and clean) large displacement motors if they want. Lastly, not meeting the said requirements simply means paying a fine. So, with all that being said, I'm convinced that this shift in focus is motivated by more than fuel efficiency standards.
Originally Posted by chuck z
Didn't BMW put a V8 in their race M3 a few years ago?