Please tell me that you're not on the level of naivete that you think that there is a single manufacturer who doesn't optimize their cars in a some kind "illegal" way. Have you ever seen the high speed testings in Nardo ? Air pressure on the tires is beyond good and evil. Mirrors are being dismounted and every single hole is covered to deflect as much wind as possible. And that is only the cosmetic we see, what happens under the hood is a totally different topic

Don't get me wrong - I am not tying to justify Pagani's lies, however they're just one out of many.

 

Ok Apex I am happy to withdraw the "Without sin" quote. And you are right we should have the ability to call people and companies out where there has been a wrong doing. All I was saying was that some people were making this out to be the second coming of the apocalypse.

I am not being an apologist on this matter but just trying to point out that historically this is nothing new. If you ever get the opportunity have a chat with Valentino Balboni about the lengths Lamborghini went to massage the performance figures of its cars over the last 30 years. It will make the Pagani incident look like mere drop in the ocean

 

Well thank you Matt for stepping up and saying something to Elhimiel. It’s about time someone else apart from The Artist or I did as his vitriol is becoming so tiresome that visiting on here is becoming a lot less enjoyable.

Argument discussions and an exchange of views is how we all learn something. We certainly don’t have to agree on everything that would be boring. But I like the idea that if given a chance most of us on here could sit down, have a drink, chew the fat and then leave as friends

 

Any number of companies could fill a book of suspicious performance claims (hell, Jerry Wiegert of Vector fame would have his own chapter), but still in those cases you're talking about manufacturer claims. I remember when I bought my first copy of Car and Driver off the newstand in 1984 I was saddend that my beloved Countach only tested to a 160mph top speed. Or whatever it was. In any case it wasn't 200mph like I had believed.

It's two quite different things for a company to make bogus performance claims as opposed to a company deliberately achieving bogus performance test results.

There's always been an avenue to verify manufacturer claims. The Top Gear (or other similar) test, unscientific as it may be, is a sort of repeatable, real-world venue to test cars relative to each other. Sort of a put up or shut up test.

If Pagani wants to say the Huayra tops out at 220 without any referenceable test to back it up, then we just take that for what it is. Most enthusiasts I think take these types of statements as just a manufacturer claim, that is to say with a grain of salt, until a car is independently tested. Same for the 240mph speed the Saleen S7 supposedly could achieve, or the 270 of the Agera R or whatever. Mathmetically calculated is not the same as actually doing it.

So Lamborghini (or anybody else, for that matter) massaging or artificially inflating horsepower figures or performance claims 30 years ago does not really compare to this case, in my opinion.

It's one thing to say "It does this" when it maybe doesn't, and quite another to say "Here you go, test our lap time like you have all the others" knowing full well that your car is on race tires which will offer you an advantage.

In any case, the fact that Pagani may not have been the first makes it no less deliberate or egregious.

 

Sounds like a great idea! Buy you a pint, should we ever meet.

Why stop at one though?

 

Because then you'd be over the limit and wouldn't be able to drive home

 

That's why it's always a good idea to stay within walking distance of home.

 

No problem, mate.

If we are being honest I think it's unrealistic to think the information would have a real impact. All Pagani has to say is that they're street legal and then by definition they are... somewhere in the world. You think Clarkson will go banging down Pagani's doors with a suitcase full of documents and "evidence"? No. Top Gear wont lift a finger because they are not serious journalists and do not have journalistic integrity or ethics. Jalopnik wet their pants and folded the moment Pagani got back to them for crying out loud. That's just the way things goes.

The other makers are better served by taking notes and upping their game but it's a losing battle if you don't have tons of money to spend on the finer details of cheating. The damage has already been done and unless Top Gear takes a stand, which they haven't and wont, then the battles "won" in this thread will be the highlight of your "victory". You've got the detective hat and pipe and lengthy tirade and everything but it wont make any difference unless someone is willing to shove Horacio up against the wall and tell him to "empty his ****ing pockets". Will they? Probably not... You're just a guy with a detective hat after all. At the end of the day the "journalists" will still produce automotive entertainment and the buyers will buy the hottest car out there, which is the Huayra. Cheating or not makes little difference if it's sexy and if they cheated then "god damn it: everyone does!"

I respect the work you put into it though and maybe you are right and my own gratification in pissing off the Pagani fanboys is selfish. More fun, but selfish. So lets leave you to it then. Good luck!

These are your words.

"Maybe I can forgive your resentment because you live in a desert country with no race or car history, only one decent track and no motorsport industry of any significance. Your street culture which is splashed across the internet seems to consist of similar idiots doing their best to kill themselves or any unlucky bystander in drifting demonstrations on public roads."

You deserved every bit of it and could use a little bit more. "Thank you Matt", indeed.

 

I agree with a good amount of what you've said here. Understand that I feel the window of opportunity we had for any possible full confession by Pagani probably passed last Tuesday or Wednesday. When I opened this thread that Tuesday morning there were 797 people viewing it and it was being referenced by a dozen internet automotive sites. At that point one of the major media outlets with the right kind of relationships needed to take the story directly to the proper contacts and ask the difficult questions. Unfortunately despite my tipping several of them, none of them appear to have run with the story as of yet.

I don't expect somebody to shove Mr. Pagani up a wall and demand a recant of his company's statement; that's not how you get results. What I expected was that with enough buzz the pressure would be on the parites involved to simply have to make a statement. I would have liked more truthfulness, and I feel a lot of face could have been saved had Pagani been a bit more forthright in their statement. But we got as good of an admission of guilt as we were likely to get without a direct apology from Mr. Pagani himself. The statement they gave provided us with just what we were looking for, while allowing Pagani to save just enough face to make the statement. Am I satisfied? Not entirely, but I'll take what we got.

I happen to think there is a lot of journalistic integrity at Top Gear, because Top Gear consists of way more than the three hosts of the TV show and the Power Lap segment. For what it's worth I'll say again there's not much proof that any of the three TV hosts were present at Dunsfold during the Huayra's Power Lap.

Understand this was not a "tirade" against Pagani. It was merely an examination of photographic evidence in dispute of what we'd been told. Pagani is a real company with real employees trying to sell real cars to real people, paying with real dollars. If even one person holds back from buying a Huayra because of this episode it will have had a real impact on the company. As a business owner it's hard for me to take too much pride in that, but ultimately Pagani brought it on themselves in the decisions they made.

I don't take much from astrology but I'm a Libra and apparently that means I believe in fairness. Courtesy of my mother I also have an OCD gene so I pore over details. That led to my posts here which I hope most have viewed as a reasoned examimantion rather than attack on Pagani or their fans. I think the automotive world is better for having the Huayra in it and I can't wait to see them arrive in the States. But in my opinion Pagani tried to get cute with their press and got caught with their pants down, and then bungled the explanation. There's a business lesson in there somewhere.

Things may always stay the same, as you say sex sells. Ironically the Huayra didn't need to be the fastest at Dunsfold, in my opinion; it would have sold just as well regardless. But if this whole episode makes every manufacturer to think twice about whether to show up at Dunsfold (or VIR, or wherever) for a performance test with clandestine, non-spec equipment, then we have made a difference indeed.

 

elhimiel I really can’t understand where you anger comes from, what have I done to deserve this constant constant tirade?

As usual you have cherry picked a comment, taken it out of context and then used that to try and prop up your nonsensical argument.

Every thing in my above statement is true, if there is any part of you wish to dispute then present your argument here. I made the comment because of your constant badgering, name calling and complete lack of manners. Plus to highlight your regions lack of car culture and motor racing history. I reacted to your constant stream of misinformation and bile. You failed I see to mention you called me a racist, funny that

So you hate someone who does not agree with your views, in some parts of the world that is called "Fundamentalism" and we all know what that leads too. If in your own words you get gratificationfrom pissing off Pagani fan boys then I suggest you get yourself a girlfriend mate as you have issues you need to sort out.

There are lots of cars I don’t like, but I don’t hate those that do. I respect their opinions; maybe you should try it sometimes.

From the day you started posting on these forums you have tried to illicit a reaction. You show no respect or grace in your dealings with anyone that disagree with you and will always fail to answer a question when your so called facts are proven to be untrue.

At least I had the guts to admit when I was wrong when confronted by the evidence, maybe that’s a lesson you could learn. It might earn you some respect on here.

So stop trying to have a go and join in a respectful discussion with the rest of us