¨Great post!

Yeah Streetrod has already taken the beating on this topic more than once on PH but suffers from forum amnesia. This one was particularly brutal, high-lighting a lot of the technical stuff as well as the financing and the EVO test (the Zonda ran different tyres).

Harry talks about detail.... - PistonHeads

And there is no need to apologize as he's a bit of a serial offender. Check this negative slant on this topic.

At last, a semi seriours test of the Koenigsegg Agera R - PistonHeads


One glaring factual error to be noted in this thread that is not covered in the above post. If the carbon bodywork indeed is poor then GE Aviation Systems is to be blamed. They also build carbon bits for Lotus and McLaren racing and McLaren-Merc production as well as an impressive list of commercial and fighter jets. This sloppy build is in other words crafted by a top-of-the-top industry leader that has a long relationship with Koenigsegg.

http://www.****************/koenigse...ml#post1839384


Now please gentlemen, let's just enjoy the cars. As much as your respective opinions may or may not be "right" it makes reading through these topics an unecessarily frustrating experience for those of us who just want to get the latest and greatest on all makers without having to wade through your bias bickering. Especially so when you can't even contain it to one forum and always seem on guard to squash Zegg's momentum. I think I speak for 99% of all readers when I say that we appreciate both these cars and like the idea of reading about them without the input of borderline company pr.

 

Wow elhimiel, talk about being selective. If you had ever bothered to read my posts properly you would realise I have the deepest respect for Koenigsegg and what they do.

Again on a number of occasions I have stated that I have been very good friends with some of the guys that work there for a number of years and everything I have said here I have been happy to repeat to their faces

I have always tried to be courteous in my dealings on these forums and enjoy a well rounded augment as much as the next man.

As for taking a beating give me a break, we were discussing how two companies approached the same problem from two different angles. There was no right or wrong, just two different ways of thinking.

You say I was taking a negative slant on the Agera video; you could not be further from the truth. I was actually relieved that someone had taken the time to put some meat on the bones of the Agera story that had been missing up to that point. I actually recommended people watch the video as I thought it was good, so please explain how that was negative?

And let’s not forget that my comments are based on hands on experience of both Pagani and Koenigsegg cars and dealings with the factories as again I have mentioned on a number of occasions. So unlike most I am not just some internet warrior here.

 

not good resale value.....

Koenigsegg CCX såld till underpris på auktion :: Nyheter - auto motor & sport

 

Made in Ängelholm Sweden, ned not more to say

 

Well, this has been an interesting 10 pages of argument! Haha. But you know, in the end none of us are going to know how both brands have been influenced, so it seems kind of void to get anyone's pants in a knot over. I can't pretend to know what goes through either of their heads, and I refuse to!

All the cars I've seen come out of both companies have been amazing in their own ways, and claiming to know which car has more originality in thought or technical prowess would seem at least opinionated, and at most completely irrelevant.

But not to negatively impact the thread, I learned a great deal of random facts about both companies that I probably wouldn't have otherwise, so thanks for that!

 

I am adding this to clear the misconception regarding general Koenigsegg facts that are circulating amongst some of the replies.


Official Koenigsegg UK dealership Quote:


Once again I do read the Koenigsegg vs Pagani topics with great interest. Those of you who do know me, know that I have spent the latter part of my years taking care of the UK market for Koenigsegg and caretaking the market for Pagani in the absence of any main dealer. I will have sold/bought/had technicians work on/driven or been in 100% of all Koenigsegg's in the UK and I would think have the same experience for 60-70% of the Pagani's here as well. So I would like to think that I have first hand experience of both brands quite well from a variety of models over the years along with the inner workings of each company from the admin staff, production floor workers right up to the people who stamp their names on the cars.

I have to say I admire both Christian and Horacio for what they have done over the years with these cars, they have both worked hard either on the production floor or in the board rooms to keep their product and company alive and fighting against the giants of corporations like the Volkswagen Audi Group.

Both companies have taken an initial idea and developed it over time, I would personally say from experience that if you compared a Pagani with a Koenigsegg of the same year the build quality is pretty similar. A lot of emphasis is put on the Koenigsegg never changing and a new model be it the CCR or CCX is just really a slightly tarted up CC8s, the cars are very different and just as much an advancement as the Zonda was from C12 to F. The Agera for Koenigsegg is a totally different animal (as the Huayra is for Pagani) and today I still sit at my desk and remember the first time I drove the car a few months ago I am still trying to find the words to describe the acceleration and experience, which is what a true Supercar should do to you… Leave you breathless and without words.

I have always looked at the two cars in the following way, undoubtably both cars are stunning and beautifully designed/engineered however I attribute (probably due to its Italian nature) the Pagani as the ultimate in design and the Koenigsegg as the most beautifully engineered car around. I remember the test driver for both Koenigsegg, Pagani (and Bugatti) spending about a half hour talking excitedly to me about one tiny part of the suspensions setup in the rear of the Koenigsegg CCX.

With regards the residual value discussion for the Koenigsegg and the Pagani it is clear that the Pagani has done better in the regard of the prices increasing. This was I believe due to some clever purchases by the factory and a lot of value pushing of the Zonda which to be honest we did our fair share of. The cars and the market could take the values they were being put up for and therefore the increase in prices started to roll. From talks with Christian we are now performing the same push and purchase scheme with Koenigsegg, having just this year purchased back from owners two vehicles. These cars like the Zonda's have been taken back to the factory, upgraded and returned to the market for resale in a much updated fashion. With this process in mind there will be no bad Koenigsegg in the UK, everything will run with the latest technology and anyone who touches a Koenigsegg in the future will have the ultimate experience, just as they do with the Pagani. Koenigsegg's have to be honest always sold well and I would say that just as many Koenigsegg's are sold in a year by ourselves as we do Pagani. Equally when you take the new car price vs the used car price for CC8s, CCR or CCX then actually the depreciation is not horrific, just because it is not one of the rare modern vehicles which appreciate in value it does not make it a bad buy financially. I do think a used CC8/CCR is today quite unbelievable value for money… But be quick as I certainly do not see it staying this way for too long.

It is actually quite an interesting discussion topic as the two companies & cars could not be so different whilst at the same time being so alike. Both vehicles, both companies, both creators are phenomenal and in a perfect world (a world many Koenigsegg & Pagani owners live in) you would have both as a lot of owners do.

Thanks,

Tommy

Tommy Wareham
SuperVettura Sales Ltd
Koenigsegg Automotive, UK market



Koenigsegg Quote:


We have two comments, first when it comes to the bodywork and second about the engine blocks.

Yes our bodies are today manufactured in England. But we used to make all of the chassis and bodies in-house for the CC8S and CCR. Also for the first CCX and the first Ageras we did all parts in-house first to get the process and instructions down correctly.
Then we send the tools, jigs, fixtures and instruction manuals to GE for series production. They then only follow our in-house developed techniques and lay-up schemes. We are clarifying this as the thread indicates that we have less of technical knowledge when it comes to carbonfiber work and design. This is untrue as all parts, tools, lay-up, backing strategy is done in-house including the first production pieces as reference. The UK company then only duplicate our system and process in our own made tools.

Finally as far as we are aware Pagani also outsource some of their carbon work, but maybe to a much lesser degree than we do.

What Pagani does not do is build their engine in-house, their electrical systems or software, or even paint their own cars. We do all of this in-house, therefore, We think this compensates, from a “which car is most genuine” point of view.

The same with the engine block. It is casted in England, simply because the best low volume high performance engine caster is in England. Then the raw block is shipped to Sweden and machined against our own drawings and then finalized into our engine. The same foundry we use also cast the 16 cylinder Bugatti Veryron block and some F1 blocks. This does not make the Bugatti engine English or engineered in England.

Koenigsegg HQ

 

Great post!! This only clarifies what i've been saying from the beginning.... What a team Koenigsegg has put togheter!

 

The comments from Tommy, is that post from about a year ago as I seem to remember it for some reason?

Anyway, I have a great deal of respect for Tommy Wareham and have spoken to him on this subject a number of times. But I cautiously submit that Tommy has a vested interest in both Pagani and Koenigsegg as he is a dealer for both companies. That does not make his comments any less valid but it is not in his interest to favour one car over the other

The nature of business dictates that the use of outside suppliers is necessary as it allows economies of scale to work in your favour, I too use a number of contractors for various components of my business, it would be uneconomic do to anything less.

Both companies have developed their products and then looked to the best partner to produce that part or provide that service. We can argue back and forth as to whom does it best but that is a pointless augment as it obviously works for each business model.

As for future values of used cars, no one can denigh that Pagani has done a better job of propping up their residual value. Tommy as a dealer has admitted this and is now trying to claw back an area where Koenisegg has been found wanting, the recent RM sale being a bit of a low point. I don’t envy Tommy's task on this one as the information is already out there.

Tribalism on the internet is nothing new, we all have our favourites, but what we all need to do is respect other peoples opinions. We don’t need to agree, that would be boring, but we don’t have to make things personal. Let’s just count ourselves lucky that both companies exist

 

Don't Pagani also outsource interior construction as well?

 

Yes they do, as well as all the Ali parts construction that is done by ASPA.

It makes no economic sense to try and do these limited run tasks in-house as you cannot economically employee the skilled labour or invest in the capital equipment to do the job properly when you are a small scale manufacturer like Pagani of Koenigsegg. Partners are a necessity.


Watch these videos if you have the time, they will illustrate what I am saying:

Pagani
《超級工å»*》義大利超跑 - 帕åŠ*å°¼ Pagani Huayraã€�ä¸*æ–‡å*—幕】 - YouTube!

Koenigsegg