.....and it took a gift from Minnesota for Boston to win a title two years ago, and it took a gift from Detroit for Denver to make to the Western Conf finals

 

I agree that the true facts about the separation of Shaq from the Lakers (with Kobe's involvement) won't come to light for awhile. Shaq's certainly not an innocent bystander in that debacle - - he definitely could've spent more time on his game than his off-court activities.

But the fact remains that Phil Jax walked away from the Lakers, and he was pretty upfront in proclaiming that his relationship with Kobe had a lot to do with it. If PJ weren't so tight with Jeannie Buss, he may never have come back, and who knows if the Lakers ever win another championship with Kobe.

As for the Nuggets, even as boneheaded as they were/are, they scared the Lakers (and Laker fans) for much of that series. That Game 1 inbounds play, if executed properly, could've easily tipped the series to Denver in 6 or 7 games. I know that everyone likes to say that the Lakers rise to the occasion when they needed to. But when the Lakers could've put themselves in a strong position to thoroughly demoralize the Nuggets and close out the series in a sweep or 5 games at most, they proceeded to lose Game 2 at home after they'd had the gift of a Game 1 win. The Nuggets, if they'd been better coached, had a better chance of beating the Lakers than the Magic did.

And yes, most NBA champs had a series or two that could've gone a different way. The only champs in recent memory who were fairly dominant the whole way thru were some of the Bulls teams and the '82-'83 76ers.

No doubt Boston was lucky to get Garnett, but they didn't give up garbage to get him. Al Jefferson is one of the best frontcourt players in the game. The Lakers gave up a bag of rocks to get Gasol. That trade wasn't a "retooling" like the Detroit trade of Billups for Iverson - - it was a straight salary dump that took much of the league by surprise at how one-sided it was. At least Detroit got significant cap relief with Iverson's contract expiring. Memphis' cap relief from the Gasol trade is meaningless - - no one wants to sign with a team as effed up as Memphis.

One other gift I forgot to mention was Orlando gifting Trevor Ariza to the Lakers. If any one person besides Kobe & Pau is responsible for the Lakers winning the title, it's Ariza that deserves that distinction more than Odom or Fisher.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on numerous topics, but I do give you for being a true NBA fan as well as your knowledge and perspective on the game.

After all of our heated debates (and Laker/Kobe hating ) through the playoffs I do have a big rep for you. I love the NBA and I love seeing its current resurgence into relevance after the lull it has been stuck in for the past several years. I think the NBA is setting up nicely to have a good run for a while with good teams stocked with quality players/individuals. I am really glad to see the selfish "gansta" movement among the NBA elite pretty much gone.

Cheers fusionstorm. I am looking forward to next season and debating many NBA topics with you. Just "don't be hatin" on my boy Kobe so much!!!

P.S. Ariza was a hidden treasure that no one knew would develop into what he has become. He was a pleasant surprise (to say the least) for the Lakers. I think they saw potential, but he was not exactly a coveted asset around the NBA when put up as trade bait by Orlando

 

Just b/c we're on opposite sides of a number of NBA debates doesn't mean we can't heed Rodney King's immortal words. I have to admit that I do like to bust on you and thedude for being Laker Lackeys, since it's fun to see Lakers fans get their thongs in a bunch if you dare talk bad about Kobe.....

I've posted here before that I don't hate Kobe, and that I'd made decent money off of him by buying a bunch of his '96-'97 rookie cards, holding them for a few seasons, then selling them for a very nice profit when his game really began to take off. But I'm also not afraid to point out his flaws (mostly off the court and in the locker room). One of my fave moments from this postseason was Phil Jackson's expression when Kobe sat next to him seconds after Hedo Turkoglu had blocked his buzzer-beating attempt from behind against triple coverage. Kobe's steaming, Jackson's got the biggest amused smile on his face. You could just read PJ's mind at that moment....."Ya know, Kobe, Michael Jordan would've passed out of that triple coverage to Ariza or Odom, who were both wide open and calling for the ball."

I love the NBA as much as you do, to the point that I recently upgraded my Warriors season tickets so I now sit 6 seats from center court about 20 rows from the court. I am a bit concerned that the inevitable lockout by the owners after the CBA expires in a couple of seasons will decimate the league. The current economics the players are enjoying are just not sustainable, and some serious changes are going to be needed. If the Players' Association doesn't get their heads outta their butts, we're looking at losing at least a full season while the owners wait for the players to spend themselves into desperation mode at the negotiation table.

 

I love this thread! Though I am a Laker fan, I am not biased towards Kobe. Kobe was 100% correct about Shaq and should not be the fall guy for Shaq leaving the Lakers. Kobe has improved as a teamate but is not "warm and fuzzy".

Apparently time clouds our vision but Jordan had a number of teamate issues as well as personal issues. I don't think Kobe's action are significantly different than MJ's was when he played.

The Lakers do have talent but Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol (much better this year) and Andrew Bynum are "talented coach-killers". Kobe should get plenty of props for leading this team to a championship.

 

MJ definitely was a piece of work, also. I think the key difference between him and KB is that MJ's teammates for the most part could tolerate him. He's still good buddies with a number of his Bulls teammates (esp. Charles Oakley). I don't get the impression that Kobe is that tight with any of his teammates, past and present.

A couple of stories and his teammate interaction:

1) MJ, being hypercompetitive and a degenerate gambler, loved to have bets with his teammates on the most silly things. For awhile, MJ was scooping thousands of dollars off of his teammates by winning bets on who owned the bag that was first off the carousel when they flew into a city. Turns out that MJ would find someone from the baggage crew, tip them a hundy or two, and have them make sure the first bag coming onto the carousel was his.

2) John Salley shared MJ's love of cigars. JS got back at MJ by betting him on whose ash would fall off first after they fired up their stogies. What MJ didn't know is that JS would straighten out a paper clip and jam it into his cigar to help keep the ash intact. MJ couldn't figure out why he always lost that bet to JS.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not as inclined to believe that Kobe is giving and getting stunts like these.....

And I really doubt that MJ tried to throw one of his teammates under the bus the way Kobe snitched on Shaq during the rape investigation.

 

The proofs in the pudding... sorry.

Snaq has been on 5 nba teams... and there is a reason for that. On the exterior, he might be fun and loving, but obviously he has some issues. 5 freakin teams! For the self-proclaimed MDE. After he won his 4th ring in Miami, he freakin left that team high and dry, demanding a trade to a contender... of course. He then leaves to PHX and proclaims this is the best team ever seen in the NBA ... they get rolled in the playoffs. He demands more touches and a coaching change... they don't make the playoffs.

Let me guess... you wanna get traded? And to a contender? Seriously its getting old.

Oh yeah... PJ might have left, but he also came back. And it wasn't because of Jeannie. He came back, coached arguably the best two-guard the game has ever seen... this time without the big lug in the middle, and now he has his 10th championship.

 

Dang, where do you come up with this stuff?? Sit down and take notes, b/c school's in session.......

Michael Jordan is the greatest 2 guard ever. Let's not let your admiration of Kobe get in the way of reality. There isn't a person in the game, including Kobe himself, who thinks he's surpassed MJ. You might be the only person alive who would pick Kobe over MJ if you were playing mythical GM.

And how can you possibly say that Jeannie Buss isn't the primary reason PJ came back?? Mitch Kupchak and Jackson himself say so in this article:

Mike Wise - Jeanie, Not Jerry, Is the Buss That Drives the Lakers' Phil Jackson - washingtonpost.com

 

There are some interesting points raised in many of these posts.

Kobe still has some good years left in him, and this Laker team probably has at least 2 titles (if not 3 titles) in them over the 5 years. Lets say for argument's sake that Kobe gets 2 more titles before he retires, giving him a total of 6, just like MJ. Has he surpassed MJ as the greatest ever by that point? Not really....maybe. Kobe would have done it with two different teams with completely different supporting casts. MJ won his titles with a team that was largely the same for all 6 titles. Both of them had the same coach. If Kobe ends up with 7 titles the argument becomes much stronger for Kobe. Right now, I think MJ, Magic and Kareem are the top 3 of all time. The super elite among the elite. Right now, Kobe is part of the top 10 of all time. If Kobe wins 2 or 3 more titles, then I think the super-elite group of 3 becomes 4 and Kobe joins MJ, Magic and Kareem in the pantheon of the best of the best. Who is the best among those 4 will be a topic of debates for years to come Personally, I am a Magic Johnson guy. I think he is the best of all time and I would take him in his prime over any other player in their prime if I was a GM starting a team.

To expand of some the points that thedude brings up about Shaq, consider the following; The great ones spend a majority of their career with one team. Moving around from team to team is a key indicator of a selfish player who is not willing to do what it takes to win. I can understand Shaq wanting to move the the Lakers from Orlando, but then Miami, then Phoenix, now Cleveland? At some point people have to face up to the fact that this guy is a cancer. Everyone gets along great when times are good, but a person's true character is defined in adversity. I will be the first to admit that Kobe had some growing up to do when the Lakers were struggling. I am still re-living that nightmare series against Detroit when Ben Wallace beat up on a fat, out of shape, disinterested Shaq. It was one of those moments when you realize the mortality of a hero that you previous thought was immortal. It was like Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson. I still remember where I was when that final punch was landed.....

I am predicting that Shaq will do all of the right things in Cleveland until around mid season, when he will start to miss a few practices, take more than a few games off, will quit working hard in practice. Lebron will grow increasingly tired of Shaq's ego, antics and lack of work ethic. It will all culminate in a second or third round exit in the playoffs. Cleveland will not renew Shaq's contract and LeBron will likely leave Cleveland. I have seen nothing from Shaq in the last 4 years that makes me feel any different about how I feel things are going to turn out. Like I said before, I tend to believe what people have done, not what they say they are going to do.....

 

They have a really good to make it to the finals, but i don't think they're a championship team.