If people couldn't handle 996 GT2's, the case is long settled.

We have a generation of drivers raised on DSC, PSM, TC, and all those fancy electronic driver saving devices that the trend of safe and fast cars is inevitable.

 

And now, with the 918 has Porsche gone digital once again and what will Ferrari come with to fit the analog niche?

 

One of our family friends has a large collection of cars, and recently picked up a 458. He absolutely loves the car and often drives it everyday. He has a MK1 GT3 RS In his garage also, and while he likes the car very much, he doesn't think it is as engaging as the 458. He even admits to driving the 458 in automatic mode much of the time. He says that the shifting is so fast, you can't help but like it. Mind you, this is a man who is a very talented driver and has driven in the Monterey historic races many times.

 

It's nice to see that I'm not alone in this thought. I have been a HUGE Ferrari fan for years, and although I think the 458 is one of the most beautiful cars on the outside, I don't want one. In full disclosure, I haven't driven one, but from what I've read and seen it seems so sterile and automatic. No different than driving my benz, with a better exhaust tone. (ok that may be a stretch but you get my point) I understand that it's a brilliant car but it doesn't move me. To me that's what super car should do. Move you inside and make you smile every time you get in it.

While there's no substitute for a manual gearbox, I'm not opposed to flappy paddles and I don't think a car needs to terrify you to be a drivers car. I think the Scuderia is a great example of a drivers car with computer aids. It's raw, loud, extremely fast and something special. But like everyone else on this thread stated, true drivers cars, whether they have a manual or flappy paddles, are few and far between.

The key point though is the driver or maybe I should say car owner. The demand is not for "drivers" cars. It's for extremely fast cars that can be driven by anyone from Paris Hilton (she had an SLR) to the bachelor d-bag that uses his car to get laid. I think that the buyers of these cars is what's changed the most over the past decade. Sure you always had exceptions but because all super cars had manual gearboxes, it turned away a lot of people that were just looking for a status statement. By default, they were sold to "drivers." Look at the sale numbers of Ferrari and Lamborghini, as soon as flappy paddles were offered their sales doubled or tripled. Which brought to the table those with money that weren't really drivers or enthusiasts. Just the well off that wanted to go fast. Another example, look at the Gumball in 2002 versus today. It was a test of endurance and completely exhausted the participants over 5 days. Very few celebrities, the emphasis was on driving quickly and for long periods of time. Keeping your car together, your body together and completing the 3000 mile journey. Now, it seems to be more about the parties and which celebrities are entering versus the experience of pushing you and your car.

It's sad to know that the majority of people under 30 probably have never or will never drive a manual gearbox. That you can't buy a 458 or the Aventador with a manual gearbox.

My .02

 

^^ I agree. I used to be a Ferrari fan until they watered down their cars. I'm only opposed to flappy paddles if that means no manual. In the 911, it doesn't, but in the 458, it does.

A few sites are saying that Porsche is working on a 7MT, which shows Porsche has not at all forgotten about the enthusiasts. Instead of ditching manuals, like Ferrari did, they are trying to improve and innovate it to make it faster and more efficient.

 

I drove a guys GTR once....it was rather forgetable to be honest. Fast yes, but the sence of speed was dull, along with the rest of the car

question though, why are some of you saying you cant drive an exotic/super car everyday??
I dont have any problem when I do. I wouldnt for three reason though, the cost, it kinda takes away from it being special and makes it mundain (mostly in traffic), and third they cant pull a tailer :-P

The only thing I think that would make the CGT bad is the auto drive clutch and stop and go and creaping at lights and such. No biggie if you dont mind the 20k replacement costs...I mind VERY much though.

 

Stuka I don't totally agree. While I believe the newer systems the cars have to AID the drivers are taking away from some of the experience. I believe the original cars that were pure feel cars Early 70's Porsches for example are still the pillar for pure driving excitement and are different in a very large way.

The power of these new cars are what a lot of people fighting the TC etc are forgetting about. When the cars had 200hp or 250hp it really wasn't such a threat as the bigger badder beasts of today. 450hp 996 gt2's and 620hp 997 gt2rs's really do need some help. This translates to far greater than 2 times the power. At speed 6/10's to 8/10's etc a 620hp Turbo charged machine coming out of an unsorted corner is a handful for the top drivers in the world. Put these machines in the hands John Q Public and you have a serious recipe for disaster.

996 Widowmakers didn't get a reputation for no reason. Are they still wonderful cars in the hands of the top drivers in the world? Yes. Is John Q Public a good sampling of "top drivers in the world?" NO. Sorry to burst bubbles guys but these cars are safer for everyone making it less likely for Porsche or Ferrari to end up in court fighting guys that take their car off the road at 140mph because they didn't truly understand the power of the car underneath them.

A beautiful 73 Porsche RS in the hands of the right guy is truly an amazing thing. The same car driven by any guy off the street is a lot less likely to kill him.

I find myself pretty happy knowing the driver behind the wheel of these monster HP cars actually have a few driver aids. These cars can reach out and bite you and bite you big.

This isn't a lot different than why we all have to wear seatbelts. In the 70's it was no big deal for me to pile in the back of my moms Olds or dads Blazer and drive 12 hours to Idaho skiing. A couple of front lap belts for mom and dad and the kids roam about like it's a playroom at home in the back. Safe as we can be. Why because in the 70's the roads were empty compared to today.

Now we have Millions of more people on the road driving cars that are faster and smoother making soccer mom's and high schoolers so comfortable, texting is no big deal. Will I drive around in today's traffic without a seatbelt? Hell no. Should I be behind the wheel of a 600hp car without a hint of TC or all the other aids affixed to these cars. Most likely not as well.

Exactly my feeling. I've told all my friends the minute I'm comfortable at speed in my CGT is the day I sell it.

 

I never had any issues with the GT2. I drove it in triple digit speed in the rain (the car did wiggle in 3rd gear when I was just a little not smooth in the upshift), going sideways on onramp and offramps, holding a nice lock in the rain, etc. Granted people riding with me were shocked at how "dangerous" the car was, but really, that's simply because they didn't start with cars that had nothing to help them. Even the old RX7 would send you into a ditch via FedEx if you didn't know what you were doing.

I am no superhuman driver, I just learned how to drive in relatively powerful RWD cars for their days without any driver's aid, the 300ZX.

I would actually say that comparing the GT2 to the E46 M3 with DSC off, they didn't feel all that different when the rear end comes out. Either you know what to do or you don't. They all drive the same when the back end goes. More power just means you need to be faster to counter, but I didn't find it 10 times more difficult to control than the E46 M3 with its meager 333HP.

I think it would be great if car companies go back to making cars with a little less HP but zero driver's aid and train the next generation of drivers to not be such lousy morons that can't survive the HP without TC/DSC/PSM/whatever.

Flame suit on for all the PSM/TC is the greatest thing since sliced bread...

 

I used to believe that a manual transmission was the only way to go, and echoed many of the arguments in favor of an MT made here...until I bought and experienced the Stradale. It didn't seem any less engaging, any less fun, or any less stimulating to the senses. In short I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.

Once the scuderia came along, and with it the requisite progress in shift times and response, the stradale sat more and more....it seem a bit sluggish in comparison. Which brings to light the fact that progression and refinement is inevitable and doesn't necessarily dilute the experience, it sometimes enhances it tangibly.

I challenge anyone to drive the GTO and tell me it's doesn't tickle the senses or "is boring"...it checks all the right boxes of sensory engagement and tightens the sphincter as much as you'll let it...simply fantastic.

....and yet I love the return to the brilliance of the GT3RS on a twisting corner filled back road on a Saturday morning, rifling through the gearbox and gooning every corner possible.

Each platform can be as engaging as you want it to be, different, but not necessarily less fun.

 

So does the GT2RS not qualify as a drivers Super car? It's a manual.