Is The Drivers Super Car Dead ?
#41
03-31-2011 | 12:03 PM
Thread Starter
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP seems to identify strongly with the "balls on a wire" feeling that the CGT elicits and posits that feeling is synonymous with a "driver's supercar". So, let's identify what a driver's car is?
Wtdoom - as most have already applauded, myself included, not many CGT owners would actually drive their car on a track. I've never driven mine on a track. I have other less lethal, less costly toys that I enjoy on the track from time to time, but the CGT has always left me weary. It's not so much the stories of wrecks or everyone's white face after they get out of one, but it's that feeling that so many CGT owners share of what can only be likened to slowly dismantling a bomb every time you drive it. Johnsgt has spoken about it and even publicly come out and considered selling the car because of it. Others have bought and sold and bought again the CGT because the feeling is so intimidating yet so intoxicating. Does that feeling solely make it a driver's supercar? I'd like to think of my cars, super or not, as engaging and confidence inspiring...the CGT is the former but not even close to the latter.
All that being said, I took my Koenigsegg on track a couple weeks ago. Not only was it utterly awe inspiring but it achieved the ever difficult "agile yet solid" sensation that many cars with half it's performance and cost are still searching for. The irony is that the technology is not that much different than that of a CGT. However, the most interesting thing happened after I handed the keys to a pro and asked him to explore the limits of my car a bit (ie: much) further while I sat shotgun and observed. After our session, we were bathing in the afterglow as only two men on a racetrack can and having some paddock talk (similar to pillow talk in this analogy). As he extolled the virtues of the Swedish car, I asked him how he feels it compares to a CGT - seemed like an apples to apples question. His facial expression changed from comfortable and satisfied to a bit on edge. He proceeded to tell me that it's known in the community (first time I've heard it) that the CGT didn't come out of the gate properly sorted. Between tires, alignment, and ride height the car just wasn't really spec'd to inspire that same confidence that we experienced in the Ksegg. He said all those things were changeable and in order to truly explore the limits of the CGT, it'd need to be...gasp...modded.
Others here have mentioned that it's the transmission that defines the term. While I tend to agree that I'd love to row gears over any other transmission, it's hard to dispute that the technology is becoming better than our dexterity can keep up. Al mentioned the CS, while I agree that it's fantastic car that I enjoy driving very much, I can't deny that the improved gearbox of the Scuderia left me longing to figure out how to do a swap of some kind. All it takes is a little taste of technology to get hooked right? Is the Iphone less of a phone because it does everything else so well? Or is it just a life changing device that most of us who use it have a hard time stepping away from? Do any of us long for the rotary dial because we never dropped a call? Okay, the analogy strays a bit. Point being there are companies out there still willing to produce a supercar with a manual transmission, but it is a dying technology. It's evolving to something that ultimately translates into better performance. Better performance obviously need not equate to less of a driving experience. It's all about how it's executed.
Wtdoom - as most have already applauded, myself included, not many CGT owners would actually drive their car on a track. I've never driven mine on a track. I have other less lethal, less costly toys that I enjoy on the track from time to time, but the CGT has always left me weary. It's not so much the stories of wrecks or everyone's white face after they get out of one, but it's that feeling that so many CGT owners share of what can only be likened to slowly dismantling a bomb every time you drive it. Johnsgt has spoken about it and even publicly come out and considered selling the car because of it. Others have bought and sold and bought again the CGT because the feeling is so intimidating yet so intoxicating. Does that feeling solely make it a driver's supercar? I'd like to think of my cars, super or not, as engaging and confidence inspiring...the CGT is the former but not even close to the latter.
All that being said, I took my Koenigsegg on track a couple weeks ago. Not only was it utterly awe inspiring but it achieved the ever difficult "agile yet solid" sensation that many cars with half it's performance and cost are still searching for. The irony is that the technology is not that much different than that of a CGT. However, the most interesting thing happened after I handed the keys to a pro and asked him to explore the limits of my car a bit (ie: much) further while I sat shotgun and observed. After our session, we were bathing in the afterglow as only two men on a racetrack can and having some paddock talk (similar to pillow talk in this analogy). As he extolled the virtues of the Swedish car, I asked him how he feels it compares to a CGT - seemed like an apples to apples question. His facial expression changed from comfortable and satisfied to a bit on edge. He proceeded to tell me that it's known in the community (first time I've heard it) that the CGT didn't come out of the gate properly sorted. Between tires, alignment, and ride height the car just wasn't really spec'd to inspire that same confidence that we experienced in the Ksegg. He said all those things were changeable and in order to truly explore the limits of the CGT, it'd need to be...gasp...modded.
Others here have mentioned that it's the transmission that defines the term. While I tend to agree that I'd love to row gears over any other transmission, it's hard to dispute that the technology is becoming better than our dexterity can keep up. Al mentioned the CS, while I agree that it's fantastic car that I enjoy driving very much, I can't deny that the improved gearbox of the Scuderia left me longing to figure out how to do a swap of some kind. All it takes is a little taste of technology to get hooked right? Is the Iphone less of a phone because it does everything else so well? Or is it just a life changing device that most of us who use it have a hard time stepping away from? Do any of us long for the rotary dial because we never dropped a call? Okay, the analogy strays a bit. Point being there are companies out there still willing to produce a supercar with a manual transmission, but it is a dying technology. It's evolving to something that ultimately translates into better performance. Better performance obviously need not equate to less of a driving experience. It's all about how it's executed.
Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts, Ben. It was great to read about driving the K'segg around the track. It's also interesting to hear about the set-up of the CGT not being perfected by the factory. Like a few others who have driven a CGT will say, it's certainly not a confidence inspiring car without spending the time to get to know it. My experience was very brief and I found it much more difficult to drive, even just around town, than any other car I've previously driven. That's not to say that I didn't love it and yearn for the chance to drive one again.
While the technology has definitely advanced and made cars better in terms of raw performance, it's interesting that so many people can base whether or not a car is good on just one aspect: the transmission. While I agree that it's fun to row your own gears, it's undeniable that flappy paddles have upped the performance capabilities of most supercars. Maybe I'm not the purist that everyone else seems to be but if I were going to be driving a supercar on a track, paddles would most likely be my choice. In my opinion, shifting the gears via paddles doesn't necessarily detract from the experience and might even add to it for me. For street driving where I don't care as much about absolute performance (since no supercar can be driven at 10/10th on the street anyway), a manual 'box is my preference.
While the technology has definitely advanced and made cars better in terms of raw performance, it's interesting that so many people can base whether or not a car is good on just one aspect: the transmission. While I agree that it's fun to row your own gears, it's undeniable that flappy paddles have upped the performance capabilities of most supercars. Maybe I'm not the purist that everyone else seems to be but if I were going to be driving a supercar on a track, paddles would most likely be my choice. In my opinion, shifting the gears via paddles doesn't necessarily detract from the experience and might even add to it for me. For street driving where I don't care as much about absolute performance (since no supercar can be driven at 10/10th on the street anyway), a manual 'box is my preference.
it is a myth that the car was not sorted from the factory .
there are 2 possibly 3 things you all need to look out for .
the height of the car . many cgt are set to sit too high . there is a us spec set of droplinks that many cars are fitted with that are too high for proper handling . You must check the car has the correct droplinks , this sets the car much lower .
secondly you can change the geo ( without compromising road use too much ) . to go more extreme you can get shims and set the car up like a racer .
Thirdly the tyres fitted to the car were always the weakest link ( even herr rohrl complained about them at launch in fact ). change the tyres .
But , the single biggest problem is that this is a racecar turned roadcar . the engine was born from the f1 lump then modified for le mans . the chassis , suspension etc are very direct ( read unforgiving ) and must be respected .
i have seen cgt's run absolutely amazing laps of circuits , but this is not an easy thing to do .
a dear friend of mine and porsche supercup racer ( and instructor ) sean edwards was hired by a gentleman to test his enzo against his carrera gt at silverstone international circuit .
sean put the cgt faster around the track by over a second . the owner stated so the carrera gt is faster ?
sean replied no the enzo is faster for 99.99 percent of the population but the cgt is faster for the remaining micro percentage .
in short it does exactly what you want it to do and if you ask it to do bad things it will do bad things . the fact that it held the ring record for so many years on crap tyres is a testament to its excellence . it needs respect , once you approach its limits . Its the driver thatds the weak link not the car .
Last edited by wtdoom; 03-31-2011 at 12:14 PM.
#42
03-31-2011 | 12:07 PM
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,719
From: So Cal - Agoura Hills
I agree with all points, Every Car I have owned and Drive Daily has a Manual Gear Box (except the mrs cars), and people in Los Angeles think I'm nuts! But I get Bored of an automatic, and being an enthusiast, and a "driver" I find most of the fun being in rowing the gears, rev-matching downshifts, etc. I know that if I had the means I would def. have a few flappy paddle cards, but only for the reason that they do not offer a Manual option, but there will never be a time where there is no Manual option in my garage. I figure with the trends of car makers nowadays - I just need to keep my eye on the present or past for car purchases - especially considering a manual "Super Car" will become a rarity in the future.
Last edited by Fuel&Fire; 03-31-2011 at 12:08 PM.
#43
03-31-2011 | 12:24 PM
FIGJAM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,463
It's all very much down to personal interpretation of what constitutes a supercar, but for me the Carrera GT represents the very ethos of what for me, a supercar is.
Even after 4 1/2 years, approaching 25,000 miles, around 40 trackdays, the anticipation, effort and reward of driving the CGT on road or track at pace still fills me with a sense of pensive excitement - in fact the palms of my hand are moist whilst I'm typing this thinking about my trip to Spa in it this weekend.
I have never owned a car that can make the most mundane journey a thrill, and reward time effort and patience in extracting a fraction of it's performance with such a fantastic afterglow.
The thing for me with the CGT is no matter how long I own and drive the car, I will never reach the limit of what the car is capable of. For me that is the very escence of why it holds such an alure, and as other more accelerative, quicker cornering cars come and go, I'll still be revelling in the challenge of the CGT.
The reality is there are very few who are commited to, or want to learn such a car close to or at it's limit, and have differing opinions of what a 'drivers supercar' really is.
Even after 4 1/2 years, approaching 25,000 miles, around 40 trackdays, the anticipation, effort and reward of driving the CGT on road or track at pace still fills me with a sense of pensive excitement - in fact the palms of my hand are moist whilst I'm typing this thinking about my trip to Spa in it this weekend.
I have never owned a car that can make the most mundane journey a thrill, and reward time effort and patience in extracting a fraction of it's performance with such a fantastic afterglow.
The thing for me with the CGT is no matter how long I own and drive the car, I will never reach the limit of what the car is capable of. For me that is the very escence of why it holds such an alure, and as other more accelerative, quicker cornering cars come and go, I'll still be revelling in the challenge of the CGT.
The reality is there are very few who are commited to, or want to learn such a car close to or at it's limit, and have differing opinions of what a 'drivers supercar' really is.
#44
03-31-2011 | 12:34 PM
Photographer Extraordinaire
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,879
From: Bellevue, WA
No wonder why it could potentially be the last true "supercar."
#47
03-31-2011 | 12:46 PM
Photographer Extraordinaire
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,879
From: Bellevue, WA
IMHO the only track around here worth going to for that purpose would be ORP. Have you been there yet, Ben?
#49
03-31-2011 | 03:31 PM
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,454
From: Pennsylvania
Carrara , unfortunately the majority of buyers want a car that can be driven every day .
People want " supercar for dummies " not "supercar unplugged " .
I think its a mix of regulation and market forces . There are very few people with the patience to try to master something like a carrera gt or F40 .
Untill this race for ultimate speeds and ringtimes becomes extinct supercars will get more and more electronic with less and less input needed from the driver .
driving at spa you should have seen me get out of the car . i was drenched in sweat and electrified with excitement . the work you have to do just to keep it in a straight line is amazing .
unfortunately people with the bank balance to buy this type of car do not always have the skill , or more importantly the desire to exploit them ( skills can be learned after all ) . its thus obvious that porsche , ferrari et all will cater to the biggest market .
the problem is if they only cater for that market , in a generation that will be the norm and there will be no real drivers cars coming up at all . then i fear a purist supercar may be dead for ever
what annoys me is that when i talked to andreas preuninger at a gt3 event ,we discussed that there are over 20 types of 911 . one for every customer . I begged him to make just 1 964 rs type truly light stripped out hardcore beast for the enthusiast , he said that it was just impossible in todays market . the sad thing is , he wanted to build such a thing even more than i wanted him too .
People want " supercar for dummies " not "supercar unplugged " .
I think its a mix of regulation and market forces . There are very few people with the patience to try to master something like a carrera gt or F40 .
Untill this race for ultimate speeds and ringtimes becomes extinct supercars will get more and more electronic with less and less input needed from the driver .
driving at spa you should have seen me get out of the car . i was drenched in sweat and electrified with excitement . the work you have to do just to keep it in a straight line is amazing .
unfortunately people with the bank balance to buy this type of car do not always have the skill , or more importantly the desire to exploit them ( skills can be learned after all ) . its thus obvious that porsche , ferrari et all will cater to the biggest market .
the problem is if they only cater for that market , in a generation that will be the norm and there will be no real drivers cars coming up at all . then i fear a purist supercar may be dead for ever
what annoys me is that when i talked to andreas preuninger at a gt3 event ,we discussed that there are over 20 types of 911 . one for every customer . I begged him to make just 1 964 rs type truly light stripped out hardcore beast for the enthusiast , he said that it was just impossible in todays market . the sad thing is , he wanted to build such a thing even more than i wanted him too .
Back to my point again: Though this stupid technology makes a car faster, when will a few seconds EVER be needed on the road or at a trackday? Unless you're driving in a racecar on the track, there is no need to water down your driving experience with technology that makes a bad driver a tenth of a second faster.
Back to the future Porsche supercar, why does it have to conform to a market? I doubt this car will make Porsche any significant profits, so why not make it a drivers' car? This will keep posers away, and will attract real drivers. If Preuninger is in charge of this project, I bet he'll try to cater to the enthusiast, even if he has to water it down a bit. Remember though, there can always be an RS version!
Just a random thought, in the late 80's, Porsche's supercar was digital (959), and Ferrari's was very analog (F40). Now 20 years later, Porsche's is very analog (GT2 RS), and Ferrari's is all digital (599 GTO).
Who remembers when Jeremy drove the 599 GTO and he said it was very very fast, but he felt like the car was driving itself and he was just a big fat lump of meat weighing the car down.
Last edited by Carrera; 03-31-2011 at 03:33 PM.
#50
03-31-2011 | 03:51 PM
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,031
From: Chicago, Il
Interesting topic. As I do agree that the 918 and the new breed of cars are far from the raw awesome cars like the F40, CGT, and others.
But to me you also brought up the term "driver". As great as it is to have a really fast car on the street, it's kind of pointless. Where do you see a majority of F40s or CGTs? On the track? Probably more than likely in front of the hot restaurant downtown or in a garage. So, for the vast majority of the super car buyers, these new breed works just fine. They look pretty and that's all that's required of them.
You want to drive? Buy an RS, Cup Car, or something build more for the track. I bet I could get more joy out of a GT3RS going to the track every few weekends than a CGT crawling through downtown chicago on a Saturday night.
But to me you also brought up the term "driver". As great as it is to have a really fast car on the street, it's kind of pointless. Where do you see a majority of F40s or CGTs? On the track? Probably more than likely in front of the hot restaurant downtown or in a garage. So, for the vast majority of the super car buyers, these new breed works just fine. They look pretty and that's all that's required of them.
You want to drive? Buy an RS, Cup Car, or something build more for the track. I bet I could get more joy out of a GT3RS going to the track every few weekends than a CGT crawling through downtown chicago on a Saturday night.