Randy Johnson Becomes 24th Pitcher To Win 300 Games
#11
06-05-2009, 03:48 PM
I agree. Ryan was great and his ability to pitch effectively until nearly 50-years old makes him a bonofide legend.
I thought that Ryan was a solid first ballot HOFer but not a slam-dunk.
Consider: He lost more games than any other 300-game winner and is 3rd all-time (292), he walked the most (2795), threw the most wild pitches (277) and had the highest hits per 9 innings as well (6.6). He is also in the top 10 in hit batters and home runs allowed. Ryan never won a Cy Young award whereas Randy Johnson won 5 - including 4 in a ROW.
Ryan did win 300 games and had the 5,386 Ks. The Ks are particularly amazing. His total gave him a per season average of 246 Ks!! That's enough to lead the league almost every year today. This translates into nearly 10 Ks per 9 innings across his career. Also, the 7 no hitters is a nearly unmatchable feat.
Much like Ryan, Johnson has that "mean" streak that made him great. They both intimidated the hell out of opposing batters and just had that winning attitude.
I love them both. But Johnson gets my vote as the better overall pitcher.
I thought that Ryan was a solid first ballot HOFer but not a slam-dunk.
Consider: He lost more games than any other 300-game winner and is 3rd all-time (292), he walked the most (2795), threw the most wild pitches (277) and had the highest hits per 9 innings as well (6.6). He is also in the top 10 in hit batters and home runs allowed. Ryan never won a Cy Young award whereas Randy Johnson won 5 - including 4 in a ROW.
Ryan did win 300 games and had the 5,386 Ks. The Ks are particularly amazing. His total gave him a per season average of 246 Ks!! That's enough to lead the league almost every year today. This translates into nearly 10 Ks per 9 innings across his career. Also, the 7 no hitters is a nearly unmatchable feat.
Much like Ryan, Johnson has that "mean" streak that made him great. They both intimidated the hell out of opposing batters and just had that winning attitude.
I love them both. But Johnson gets my vote as the better overall pitcher.
I agree
Last edited by Barrister; 06-05-2009 at 03:52 PM.
#12
06-05-2009, 11:10 PM
Good thread. Anyone recall when he was an Expo prospect and the concern was that he'd never learn to control his fastball?
Arugably the best five year run ever, including Koufax. Link to steroids somewhat diminished. 1st ballot H-O-F'er.
Biggest negative, Highly modified Shelby Durango that ran through Barrett Jackson in 2004.
Arugably the best five year run ever, including Koufax. Link to steroids somewhat diminished. 1st ballot H-O-F'er.
Biggest negative, Highly modified Shelby Durango that ran through Barrett Jackson in 2004.
#13
06-06-2009, 03:44 PM
I'd give Koufax the nod. Never saw him pitch, but anecdotally he was considered to have the best fastball AND the best curveball that players/observers in that era said they'd ever seen. I'm sure the SABR-ites can try to normalize things WRT the different eras (park dimensions, quality of opposition, etc.). Would be interesting to read how they compare.
RJ definitely deserves consideration IMO as one of the best lefties of all time.
RJ definitely deserves consideration IMO as one of the best lefties of all time.
#14
06-06-2009, 03:48 PM
Johnson is the 6th winningest left-hander of all time but has the 4th best winning percentage.
I would not rank Johnson in the top 10 pitchers of all time - or even in the modern era.
But he is most def a first ballot HOFer.
I would not rank Johnson in the top 10 pitchers of all time - or even in the modern era.
But he is most def a first ballot HOFer.
#15
06-07-2009, 09:00 PM
I'd give Koufax the nod. Never saw him pitch, but anecdotally he was considered to have the best fastball AND the best curveball that players/observers in that era said they'd ever seen. I'm sure the SABR-ites can try to normalize things WRT the different eras (park dimensions, quality of opposition, etc.). Would be interesting to read how they compare.
RJ definitely deserves consideration IMO as one of the best lefties of all time.
RJ definitely deserves consideration IMO as one of the best lefties of all time.
I also don't consider Johnson a top 10 pitcher of all time. Agreed though he is a 1st ballot HOF'r.
#16
06-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Koufax was on a different planet when he pitched.
What separates Koufax from Johnson is Koufax's World Series record.
Koufax had an incredible WS record pitching in 1959, 1963, 1965 and 1966.
Although he was only 4-3 in his 8 WS appearances, his WS ERA was 0.95 (he lost 2 of the 3 games by scores of 1-0 and 2-1).
Koufax beat the Yankees twice in the 1965 WS.
I think that contributing to a WS winning team should count for a lot towards all-time greatness and/or HOF enshrinement.
If Johnson had not been a part of the 2001 Diamondback team that won the WS - and contributed as much as anyone on that squad - his bid to be a first ballot HOFer would be much weaker.
What separates Koufax from Johnson is Koufax's World Series record.
Koufax had an incredible WS record pitching in 1959, 1963, 1965 and 1966.
Although he was only 4-3 in his 8 WS appearances, his WS ERA was 0.95 (he lost 2 of the 3 games by scores of 1-0 and 2-1).
Koufax beat the Yankees twice in the 1965 WS.
I think that contributing to a WS winning team should count for a lot towards all-time greatness and/or HOF enshrinement.
If Johnson had not been a part of the 2001 Diamondback team that won the WS - and contributed as much as anyone on that squad - his bid to be a first ballot HOFer would be much weaker.
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