The Official McLaren F1 Thread
Feb 27, 2010 | 06:51 AM
#191
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Feb 27, 2010 | 08:46 AM
#192
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Feb 27, 2010 | 11:16 AM
#193
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Only 4 or 5 LM's were built, iirc. All LMs were painted papya orange like the GTR above. Real LMs don't have the duct on the right side rocker panel just before the rear wheel. That was something all the GTRs had. Also, the GTRs don't have two passenger seats whereas the LMs do.
Feb 27, 2010 | 12:20 PM
#194
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,578
From: California, USA
The F1 GTRs were the race cars. F1 LMs were built to commemorate the success McLaren had at the 1995 24Hrs of LeMans where 7 F1 GTRs were entered and 5 finished the race. They took 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 13th places overall, and McLaren chose to build one F1 LM for each car that finished the event, plus one LM prototype, for a total of 6.
The major difference is that an LM was originally developed to be a road car in its rawest form. It retains the 3-seater layout of the F1 road car, whereas the GTRs even after being converted for road use later in life only have the passenger seat to the left of the driver. There are subtle styling differences between the two types of short tailed GTRs and the LM as well, but with a lot of the F1 GTRs having been painted in McLaren's traditional Papaya Orange later in life, it does become difficult to tell them apart.
The LMs are similar to a Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale in that Ferrari built the 360 Modena, then built a 360 Challenge car for the track, and then came back and built a road version of the Challenge car calling it the 360 Challenge Stradale. In McLaren's case you had the F1 road car first, then they took that and developed it with a small budget to conform to the international racing rules at the time to create the nine 1995 F1 GTRs. Then as stated the LMs came along as a special edition. For 1996, McLaren made many developmental updates to the GTRs to keep them competitive and would build another 9 cars. Meissner's orange GTR was one of those - chassis #11R to be exact. For 1997, as competition from cars like the 911 GT1 and Mercedes Benz CLK GTR began to increase, McLaren took the GTR one step further and developed the longtail bodywork. There would be 10 of the longtail GTRs built for a total of 28 altogether. So far only the short tailed versions have actually been converted for road use and that number is 9 out of 18, of which 5 have been resprayed in that orange color.
For more detail on LMs versus GTRs, here's something I wrote many years back while coincidentally discussing some photos of #11R which someone had confused as an LM.
There's more ways to disprove that a car is not an LM than there is to identify one. Meaning, that if you study the features that are present on the LM's, it's easy to say what's not a true LM.
The two most obvious things are the small intake port on the left side ahead of the rear wheel which you won't find on the LM, but was present on the GTR's. All the GTR's that I have seen which have received the LM-look still have this intake on the side. It's a dead giveaway.
The other major visual difference can be seen from the front. Notice the difference in the center hood vents on the three variations in the photo at the bottom. The '95 GTR (#07R) looks no different than a standard F1 road car. The LM's adds a large vent opening near the top. The '96 GTR (#11R) has a similar vent, but it's mounted much lower on the cover and isn't a perfect rectangle as it has a small drop down section in the center. This particular '96 GTR also has the extra roof scoop which wouldn't be seen on a true LM. Though it was never seen on any '95 GTRs, not all '96 GTR's have this additional scoop attached to the roof intake.
True LM's have smooth rocker panels that hang almost straight down from front to back. If you look closely at photos of #11R you'll see it has small wings that stick out from the rocker panels aft of the door line.
LM's have the locking fuel filler on the left side c-pillar as seen on the F1 road car. The converted GTR's just appear to have a blank carbon fiber circle in it's place on the left, and their fuel filler is on the right side c-pillar.
LM's have windows through the engine compartment allowing for internal rear view mirrors. Converted '96 GTRs (as #11R is) don't/wouldn't have those. '95 GTRs did have those windows so it's not always a sure thing with this clue.
LM's can have sliding side windows, whereas I have never seen those fitted to a converted GTR.
LM's do not have a built in roll cage, whereas you will still find one on all converted GTR's. I don't believe it can be removed.
LMs do not have the large panel of switches on located in the right side footwell or the ECU and other equipment located in the right passenger seat rendering the third seating position useless.
LM's have a beautiful logo engraved into the side plates of the rear wing which reads "GTR" and "24 HEURES DU MANS" with "1995 WINNERS" below. I've never seen that on any of the converted GTRs.
LM's actually have "F1 LM" engraved into one of the spokes on each magnesium OZ wheel. On some, but not all GTRs, you will find "GTR" painted onto one of the spokes of each wheel instead - I believe #11R has it.
LM's wear the 'F1 LM' badge on upper left corner of the rear grille and a lone 'McLaren' badge on the lower right.
LM's have the same three cut-outs in the center of their front bumper as the GTR's do, however on the LM's they are blanked out, however on the GTR's they are somewhat larger and have removable screens.
While I can't guarantee this to be true for all, every LM I have seen photos of was wearing a black windshield banner that reads "F1LM_____McLaren_____F1LM".
LMs have the standard F1 road car's windscreen wiper fitted. This can also be true for the '95 GTRs which have been converted, but the '96 GTRs have a different wiper that sits off the side of the windscreen instead of near the bottom.
There's certainly a few details that I am forgetting, but that's most of the important ones that you will be able to notice with a glance at most photos.
Hope all that info helps! Two corrections are now required since I wrote that. First, GTR #16R did eventually have it's roll cage removed (and preserved for restoration purposes should someone so choose) making it a bit more liveable inside without that encroaching on occupant space or having to worry about knocking your head on it getting in and out. Also, GTR #08R was converted and ended up with a set of those sliding windows previously seen only on a few of the LMs.
Here's an updated version of the image I referred to of the three cars, but I've inserted a shot of each of the GTRs that have been resprayed in Papaya now. You can see that #08R looks most like an LM and that #11R is the only 1996 GTR to have retained its roof scoop while wearing the Papaya paint. Most of the other rules listed above hold true though:
To answer the earlier question about Meissner - I believe that #11R was the last F1 he owned and that it was sold sometime in 2007. It now lives in Northern Italy. If he has picked up a new one since then, that hasn't hit my radar yet.
>8^)
ER
The major difference is that an LM was originally developed to be a road car in its rawest form. It retains the 3-seater layout of the F1 road car, whereas the GTRs even after being converted for road use later in life only have the passenger seat to the left of the driver. There are subtle styling differences between the two types of short tailed GTRs and the LM as well, but with a lot of the F1 GTRs having been painted in McLaren's traditional Papaya Orange later in life, it does become difficult to tell them apart.
The LMs are similar to a Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale in that Ferrari built the 360 Modena, then built a 360 Challenge car for the track, and then came back and built a road version of the Challenge car calling it the 360 Challenge Stradale. In McLaren's case you had the F1 road car first, then they took that and developed it with a small budget to conform to the international racing rules at the time to create the nine 1995 F1 GTRs. Then as stated the LMs came along as a special edition. For 1996, McLaren made many developmental updates to the GTRs to keep them competitive and would build another 9 cars. Meissner's orange GTR was one of those - chassis #11R to be exact. For 1997, as competition from cars like the 911 GT1 and Mercedes Benz CLK GTR began to increase, McLaren took the GTR one step further and developed the longtail bodywork. There would be 10 of the longtail GTRs built for a total of 28 altogether. So far only the short tailed versions have actually been converted for road use and that number is 9 out of 18, of which 5 have been resprayed in that orange color.
For more detail on LMs versus GTRs, here's something I wrote many years back while coincidentally discussing some photos of #11R which someone had confused as an LM.
There's more ways to disprove that a car is not an LM than there is to identify one. Meaning, that if you study the features that are present on the LM's, it's easy to say what's not a true LM.
The two most obvious things are the small intake port on the left side ahead of the rear wheel which you won't find on the LM, but was present on the GTR's. All the GTR's that I have seen which have received the LM-look still have this intake on the side. It's a dead giveaway.
The other major visual difference can be seen from the front. Notice the difference in the center hood vents on the three variations in the photo at the bottom. The '95 GTR (#07R) looks no different than a standard F1 road car. The LM's adds a large vent opening near the top. The '96 GTR (#11R) has a similar vent, but it's mounted much lower on the cover and isn't a perfect rectangle as it has a small drop down section in the center. This particular '96 GTR also has the extra roof scoop which wouldn't be seen on a true LM. Though it was never seen on any '95 GTRs, not all '96 GTR's have this additional scoop attached to the roof intake.
True LM's have smooth rocker panels that hang almost straight down from front to back. If you look closely at photos of #11R you'll see it has small wings that stick out from the rocker panels aft of the door line.
LM's have the locking fuel filler on the left side c-pillar as seen on the F1 road car. The converted GTR's just appear to have a blank carbon fiber circle in it's place on the left, and their fuel filler is on the right side c-pillar.
LM's have windows through the engine compartment allowing for internal rear view mirrors. Converted '96 GTRs (as #11R is) don't/wouldn't have those. '95 GTRs did have those windows so it's not always a sure thing with this clue.
LM's can have sliding side windows, whereas I have never seen those fitted to a converted GTR.
LM's do not have a built in roll cage, whereas you will still find one on all converted GTR's. I don't believe it can be removed.
LMs do not have the large panel of switches on located in the right side footwell or the ECU and other equipment located in the right passenger seat rendering the third seating position useless.
LM's have a beautiful logo engraved into the side plates of the rear wing which reads "GTR" and "24 HEURES DU MANS" with "1995 WINNERS" below. I've never seen that on any of the converted GTRs.
LM's actually have "F1 LM" engraved into one of the spokes on each magnesium OZ wheel. On some, but not all GTRs, you will find "GTR" painted onto one of the spokes of each wheel instead - I believe #11R has it.
LM's wear the 'F1 LM' badge on upper left corner of the rear grille and a lone 'McLaren' badge on the lower right.
LM's have the same three cut-outs in the center of their front bumper as the GTR's do, however on the LM's they are blanked out, however on the GTR's they are somewhat larger and have removable screens.
While I can't guarantee this to be true for all, every LM I have seen photos of was wearing a black windshield banner that reads "F1LM_____McLaren_____F1LM".
LMs have the standard F1 road car's windscreen wiper fitted. This can also be true for the '95 GTRs which have been converted, but the '96 GTRs have a different wiper that sits off the side of the windscreen instead of near the bottom.
There's certainly a few details that I am forgetting, but that's most of the important ones that you will be able to notice with a glance at most photos.
Hope all that info helps!
Here's an updated version of the image I referred to of the three cars, but I've inserted a shot of each of the GTRs that have been resprayed in Papaya now. You can see that #08R looks most like an LM and that #11R is the only 1996 GTR to have retained its roof scoop while wearing the Papaya paint. Most of the other rules listed above hold true though:
To answer the earlier question about Meissner - I believe that #11R was the last F1 he owned and that it was sold sometime in 2007. It now lives in Northern Italy. If he has picked up a new one since then, that hasn't hit my radar yet.
>8^)
ER
Last edited by Peloton25; Feb 27, 2010 at 01:09 PM.
Feb 27, 2010 | 12:37 PM
#196
McLaren Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,578
From: California, USA
6 including the prototype.
Bzzzzzt - WRONG! But thank you for playing. 
While McLaren's original intention was to paint all the LMs in their traditional orange paint, and while they have stated more than a few times and in more than a few places that they were, it is factually incorrect. Two of the three LMs that went to Brunei we painted Black/Grey like the GTR that won LeMans, and then had some flag-style graphics painted down their sides.
For the longest time the so called "Black LM's" were just a rumor as no photographic proof of their existence was available. I had several good sources who had confirmed their existence, all with basically the same description, but some people refused to believe it without solid proof.
In October of 2005, a contact sent me a link to the website of Italian artist Maurizio Corbi noting that I'd find a drawing there depicting one of the Black LMs. Sure enough, when I contacted Maurizio he informed me that he had done the drawing in 1996 while working for Pininfarina in Brunei of this very special F1. While not a photograph - his confirmation that the drawing depicted a real car in the Brunei collection was the final piece of evidence that we'd been looking for.
In July of 2008, someone finally stumbled on photographic proof that had been right under our noses (essentially) since July 17th 1996. It was in an issue of Autoweek magazine where they did an article on the McLaren - and pictured right in the middle of a page was a real photo of LM1 being assembled at the factory. I have a feeling that McLaren would have probably preferred that image never went to print, and that may be one of the reasons why they now require editorial review in advance of printing anything shot inside the factory. Now I didn't own a copy of the magazine, but the guy who finally produced the scan of the page had owned it since the date it was printed and had just never gone back to look through it until that point.
It wasn't long after that, a user from PistonHeads was going through his old photo collection and shared images from the McLaren factory taken in 1996. In his set of photos were two more images of a black LM completed and ready for delivery to Brunei.
That part was good.
>8^)
ER
All LMs were painted papya orange like the GTR above.
While McLaren's original intention was to paint all the LMs in their traditional orange paint, and while they have stated more than a few times and in more than a few places that they were, it is factually incorrect. Two of the three LMs that went to Brunei we painted Black/Grey like the GTR that won LeMans, and then had some flag-style graphics painted down their sides.
For the longest time the so called "Black LM's" were just a rumor as no photographic proof of their existence was available. I had several good sources who had confirmed their existence, all with basically the same description, but some people refused to believe it without solid proof.
In October of 2005, a contact sent me a link to the website of Italian artist Maurizio Corbi noting that I'd find a drawing there depicting one of the Black LMs. Sure enough, when I contacted Maurizio he informed me that he had done the drawing in 1996 while working for Pininfarina in Brunei of this very special F1. While not a photograph - his confirmation that the drawing depicted a real car in the Brunei collection was the final piece of evidence that we'd been looking for.
In July of 2008, someone finally stumbled on photographic proof that had been right under our noses (essentially) since July 17th 1996. It was in an issue of Autoweek magazine where they did an article on the McLaren - and pictured right in the middle of a page was a real photo of LM1 being assembled at the factory. I have a feeling that McLaren would have probably preferred that image never went to print, and that may be one of the reasons why they now require editorial review in advance of printing anything shot inside the factory. Now I didn't own a copy of the magazine, but the guy who finally produced the scan of the page had owned it since the date it was printed and had just never gone back to look through it until that point.
It wasn't long after that, a user from PistonHeads was going through his old photo collection and shared images from the McLaren factory taken in 1996. In his set of photos were two more images of a black LM completed and ready for delivery to Brunei.
Real LMs don't have the duct on the right side rocker panel just before the rear wheel. That was something all the GTRs had. Also, the GTRs don't have two passenger seats whereas the LMs do.
>8^)
ER
Last edited by Peloton25; Feb 27, 2010 at 02:18 PM.
Feb 27, 2010 | 01:14 PM
#197
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 31,976
From: Minnesota
hahaha thanks for the corrections, Erik. I didn't know how long it would take you to respond to all the questions in this thread so I thought I'd take a stab at it. Clearly, I'm still just a young grasshopper compared to you.
Last edited by Alzilla; Feb 28, 2010 at 10:48 AM.
