E39 M5 vs E90 M3
Nov 7, 2011 | 11:36 PM
#1
Thread Starter
| Teamspeed's Mr. Spock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,947
From: Los Angeles
E39 M5 vs E90 M3
Background:
I thought that we could live with just one sedan for right now after getting rid of the S4 Avant and wait for the right opportunity to get a GT or F car, but since the E30 cannot be used to transport more than one kid (rear belts do not lock), effectively it meant that we only had the M5 as the family car, which is why we ended up ordering the last of the E90 M3.
The specs:
M3 4 liter V8 with 414HP and 295lb/ft carrying a 3726 pound of car
M5 5 liter V8 with 394HP and 369lb-ft carrying a 4000 pound of car
Having not been impressed by BMW clutches since E36 M3, I wanted to order DCT, because, why bother with craptastic clutch when you can have something that gives you the same control? Well, the mrs vetoed that, and we got a 6 speed. And yes, the clutch is every bit as lousy as I feared. I am now more used to it, but compared to the E39 M5, the E36 M3, the GT2, and the E30 325is, the E90 M3 clutch is soft with vague engagement point, which means you cannot do the quick uptake grab that older BMW's and modern P GT cars give you.
Clutch, the M5 wins, no if's and but's.
Much has been said about how terrible the recirculating balljoint steering on the M5 is, but I never found it to be uncommunicative. In fact, I found it to be really no worse than the M3. Take my favorite road into Pasadena for example, if you are smooth, the M5 can deliver a pretty quick pace through there. Yes, there is a little roll, but nothing a little preloading can't fix, and really, it is so miniscule. That would explain why M5's do just fine at places like Sears Point, despite its heft. Somehow, everything just works together. The M3, well, you would expect nothing less than the legendary M3 handling. And since I got ZCP, I also have the EDC. With it on full stiff, what I found was that on that favorite road into Pasadena, the car feels like its being made to do things it doesn't want to do. Namely, trying to be nimble when it no longer is a nimble car at 3700 pound and then some. So I tried it again with full soft, and with a little preloading, it was quicker than the M5 no doubt. But again, you have to work at it. The M5 is quite effortless.
Suspension, tie.
Having experienced the rev happiness of the E46 M3, and the torquey E39 M5 V8, I was looking forward to the high revving V8 M3 engine, you know, the best of both worlds. But instead:
1. There is zero torque in this V8 engine, ZERO. Yes, I realize that the E46 M3 engine also has zero torque, but the E46 M3 is almost 400 pounds lighter while having almost the same amount of torque.
2. The V8 revs slowly. Yes, I know it's all relative, but when I bury the throttle in 3rd at 4000rpm, I expect the engine to quickly reach 8K. Because of how slow it revs, it also makes the car feel slow.
3. Because this zero torque V8 is paried with a super duper diff, you really have to bury it in 1st gear to overpower the diff and get a pretty lame power on oversteer. In the E39 M5, with the not as trick diff, you can easily get a nice power on oversteer in 2nd gear, and 1st gear? all the time, easily. It was one of the best oversteering cars I have had.
They should have given it either an updated S62, or keep the car at 3350 like the previous M3. The package of a small V8 in a relatively heavy E90 platform that they put together just does not work.
Engine, M5 wins.
Obviously, with 0 to 60 of 4.7 second, and 1/4 at 12.7 at 113mph, it is quicker than the M5's 13.2 at 107mph. But if you were driving the two cars back to back, you would have a hard time believing so.
In reality, the M3 had no trouble keeping up with the M5. But you feel like you have to put effort into doing so. Whereas in the M5 you are very relaxed going lock up with Bubba speed.
If you are getting the E90 M3 thinking it's a modern replacement of the E39 M5 given the similarity in engine configuration and weight, it is not. Not by a long shot.
My E39 M5 has BT, updated DVD NAV, and OK stock stereo. The NAV and the headunit looks dated compares to the E90, and the BT doesn't work very well, and of course, no A2DP. The E90 has got all that and then some in this department.
Infotainment, M3 wins.
At the end of the day, I caught myself picking the E39 M5 over the E90 M3 most of the time when choosing the keys.
In closing, BMW really knocked it out of the park with the E39 M5, and not so much with the E90 M3. The E90 M3 will be turned in at the end of the lease.
I thought that we could live with just one sedan for right now after getting rid of the S4 Avant and wait for the right opportunity to get a GT or F car, but since the E30 cannot be used to transport more than one kid (rear belts do not lock), effectively it meant that we only had the M5 as the family car, which is why we ended up ordering the last of the E90 M3.
The specs:
M3 4 liter V8 with 414HP and 295lb/ft carrying a 3726 pound of car
M5 5 liter V8 with 394HP and 369lb-ft carrying a 4000 pound of car
Having not been impressed by BMW clutches since E36 M3, I wanted to order DCT, because, why bother with craptastic clutch when you can have something that gives you the same control? Well, the mrs vetoed that, and we got a 6 speed. And yes, the clutch is every bit as lousy as I feared. I am now more used to it, but compared to the E39 M5, the E36 M3, the GT2, and the E30 325is, the E90 M3 clutch is soft with vague engagement point, which means you cannot do the quick uptake grab that older BMW's and modern P GT cars give you.
Clutch, the M5 wins, no if's and but's.
Much has been said about how terrible the recirculating balljoint steering on the M5 is, but I never found it to be uncommunicative. In fact, I found it to be really no worse than the M3. Take my favorite road into Pasadena for example, if you are smooth, the M5 can deliver a pretty quick pace through there. Yes, there is a little roll, but nothing a little preloading can't fix, and really, it is so miniscule. That would explain why M5's do just fine at places like Sears Point, despite its heft. Somehow, everything just works together. The M3, well, you would expect nothing less than the legendary M3 handling. And since I got ZCP, I also have the EDC. With it on full stiff, what I found was that on that favorite road into Pasadena, the car feels like its being made to do things it doesn't want to do. Namely, trying to be nimble when it no longer is a nimble car at 3700 pound and then some. So I tried it again with full soft, and with a little preloading, it was quicker than the M5 no doubt. But again, you have to work at it. The M5 is quite effortless.
Suspension, tie.
Having experienced the rev happiness of the E46 M3, and the torquey E39 M5 V8, I was looking forward to the high revving V8 M3 engine, you know, the best of both worlds. But instead:
1. There is zero torque in this V8 engine, ZERO. Yes, I realize that the E46 M3 engine also has zero torque, but the E46 M3 is almost 400 pounds lighter while having almost the same amount of torque.
2. The V8 revs slowly. Yes, I know it's all relative, but when I bury the throttle in 3rd at 4000rpm, I expect the engine to quickly reach 8K. Because of how slow it revs, it also makes the car feel slow.
3. Because this zero torque V8 is paried with a super duper diff, you really have to bury it in 1st gear to overpower the diff and get a pretty lame power on oversteer. In the E39 M5, with the not as trick diff, you can easily get a nice power on oversteer in 2nd gear, and 1st gear? all the time, easily. It was one of the best oversteering cars I have had.
They should have given it either an updated S62, or keep the car at 3350 like the previous M3. The package of a small V8 in a relatively heavy E90 platform that they put together just does not work.
Engine, M5 wins.
Obviously, with 0 to 60 of 4.7 second, and 1/4 at 12.7 at 113mph, it is quicker than the M5's 13.2 at 107mph. But if you were driving the two cars back to back, you would have a hard time believing so.
In reality, the M3 had no trouble keeping up with the M5. But you feel like you have to put effort into doing so. Whereas in the M5 you are very relaxed going lock up with Bubba speed.
If you are getting the E90 M3 thinking it's a modern replacement of the E39 M5 given the similarity in engine configuration and weight, it is not. Not by a long shot.
My E39 M5 has BT, updated DVD NAV, and OK stock stereo. The NAV and the headunit looks dated compares to the E90, and the BT doesn't work very well, and of course, no A2DP. The E90 has got all that and then some in this department.
Infotainment, M3 wins.
At the end of the day, I caught myself picking the E39 M5 over the E90 M3 most of the time when choosing the keys.
In closing, BMW really knocked it out of the park with the E39 M5, and not so much with the E90 M3. The E90 M3 will be turned in at the end of the lease.
Nov 8, 2011 | 06:52 AM
#2
Teamspeed Rookie
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
On point
I was at the dealer while back saw this nice silver blue M3 ZCP with a 70k price tag all the bells and whistles. sales man tells me just test drive it!
So I love the DCT but low end there is nothing. like STUKA states...
Here I have a 10 year old e39 M5 which cost me the same amount new as the current M3, has better quality interior than the m3 and could seat adults in comfort, okay it does not have some of the modern day gadgets but it can put a smile on my face in any gear. sorry no sale. I told him I could get a 2 year old Porsche which would be money well spent.
So I love the DCT but low end there is nothing. like STUKA states...
Here I have a 10 year old e39 M5 which cost me the same amount new as the current M3, has better quality interior than the m3 and could seat adults in comfort, okay it does not have some of the modern day gadgets but it can put a smile on my face in any gear. sorry no sale. I told him I could get a 2 year old Porsche which would be money well spent.
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