Autocar: GT3 RS vs MP4-12C
#12
10-11-2011, 03:46 PM
Want me to? The F40 was one of the greatest cars of all time, and is certainly a legend. But, the topic of this thread isn't about that, is it?
BTW, I was using the context as in there are no doubts "in my mind" it will be a legend, not as in there are no doubts; "in my mind it will be a legend".
BTW, I was using the context as in there are no doubts "in my mind" it will be a legend, not as in there are no doubts; "in my mind it will be a legend".
Last edited by Carrera; 10-11-2011 at 03:49 PM.
#13
10-12-2011, 10:35 AM
Back to the Mclaren: whether ist really performance from another planet remains to be confirmed..Sport Auto will bring its Nürburgring times in a few days..but they did alredy a test in Hockenheim..
1) Hockenheimring was 0,1 better then GT2RS - but with the optional Pirelli Corsa tires
2) Measured weight at 1451KG !!! thats way heavier than claimed by manufacturer
3) Braking performance is mediocre apparently...from 100-0 a Cayman R can brake better - 35,3m is really not up to the promised standard either..
So lets see..next week we know more...my prediction:
Mclaren MP 4-12C: somewhere around 7:30 for Nürburgring - why I m not giving it a faster time: the weight + the brake issue will slow it down..
PS: interesting to see will also be where the MP4-12 will also be in the wet..
If it comes to 7:30 all 997 GT3RS-GT2-GT34.0 and GT2RS owners can be very happy..the first two are only beaten by 3 secs then..(how much is due to the corsa tires?)..4.0 would be even and GT2RS would remain as ultimate Nordschleife tool..
PSII: if the Mclaren cant go faster than 7:33 than it will be a disappointment - I think it will be faster..for refernce: 458 did 7:38 but on normal tires..
#14
10-12-2011, 10:56 AM
What's interesting to me is that a car like the GT3, which is, despite its genuine specialness, still a mainstream production car, subject to all the cost containment issues inherent in mass production vehicles, isn't made entirely of exotic materials, and has the engine in a less-optimal place than the McLaren, does so well.
Obviously, straight horsepower puts the McLaren ahead down the straights, but under braking and cornering, it's a driver's race. It really goes to show you how close to maximizing the grip from a given set of tires modern sports cars are, and how minimal the differences are between vehicles at widely differing price points. Even if you through a Z06 or a GT-R in there, there wouldn't be much in it. Remember the clip on Top Gear of an Evo vs a Lambo?
As I get older, I'm getting steadily more bored of people splitting hairs over the lap times achieved by street cars. How many of us are good enough drivers to extract everything a Subaru STi has to offer? Really? The only measurable objective difference between the performance envelope of modern sports cars is acceleration. In that regard, most people wind up finding that the 'sweet spot' in terms of that metric on a street car is mid/low-11s, trapping around 120-125. Yes, there are exceptions, but a Z06 is all the performance most of us can realistically handle, and more than enough to have huge fun driving it. Unless you get paid to win, what else genuinely matters?
I'm not arguing that we should never spend more than 30k on a performance car, just that when we do, we don't kid ourselves that what we're paying for is entirely performance-related. Mostly, it's some combination of brand image, build quality, ownership experience, driving pleasure, and aesthetics. If you really want to go fast, you need a downforce-and-slicks race car, and a bucketload more skill than most of us have at the moment.
Obviously, straight horsepower puts the McLaren ahead down the straights, but under braking and cornering, it's a driver's race. It really goes to show you how close to maximizing the grip from a given set of tires modern sports cars are, and how minimal the differences are between vehicles at widely differing price points. Even if you through a Z06 or a GT-R in there, there wouldn't be much in it. Remember the clip on Top Gear of an Evo vs a Lambo?
As I get older, I'm getting steadily more bored of people splitting hairs over the lap times achieved by street cars. How many of us are good enough drivers to extract everything a Subaru STi has to offer? Really? The only measurable objective difference between the performance envelope of modern sports cars is acceleration. In that regard, most people wind up finding that the 'sweet spot' in terms of that metric on a street car is mid/low-11s, trapping around 120-125. Yes, there are exceptions, but a Z06 is all the performance most of us can realistically handle, and more than enough to have huge fun driving it. Unless you get paid to win, what else genuinely matters?
I'm not arguing that we should never spend more than 30k on a performance car, just that when we do, we don't kid ourselves that what we're paying for is entirely performance-related. Mostly, it's some combination of brand image, build quality, ownership experience, driving pleasure, and aesthetics. If you really want to go fast, you need a downforce-and-slicks race car, and a bucketload more skill than most of us have at the moment.
#15
10-12-2011, 11:15 AM
What's interesting to me is that a car like the GT3, which is, despite its genuine specialness, still a mainstream production car, subject to all the cost containment issues inherent in mass production vehicles, isn't made entirely of exotic materials, and has the engine in a less-optimal place than the McLaren, does so well.
Obviously, straight horsepower puts the McLaren ahead down the straights, but under braking and cornering, it's a driver's race. It really goes to show you how close to maximizing the grip from a given set of tires modern sports cars are, and how minimal the differences are between vehicles at widely differing price points. Even if you through a Z06 or a GT-R in there, there wouldn't be much in it. Remember the clip on Top Gear of an Evo vs a Lambo?
As I get older, I'm getting steadily more bored of people splitting hairs over the lap times achieved by street cars. How many of us are good enough drivers to extract everything a Subaru STi has to offer? Really? The only measurable objective difference between the performance envelope of modern sports cars is acceleration. In that regard, most people wind up finding that the 'sweet spot' in terms of that metric on a street car is mid/low-11s, trapping around 120-125. Yes, there are exceptions, but a Z06 is all the performance most of us can realistically handle, and more than enough to have huge fun driving it. Unless you get paid to win, what else genuinely matters?
I'm not arguing that we should never spend more than 30k on a performance car, just that when we do, we don't kid ourselves that what we're paying for is entirely performance-related. Mostly, it's some combination of brand image, build quality, ownership experience, driving pleasure, and aesthetics. If you really want to go fast, you need a downforce-and-slicks race car, and a bucketload more skill than most of us have at the moment.
Obviously, straight horsepower puts the McLaren ahead down the straights, but under braking and cornering, it's a driver's race. It really goes to show you how close to maximizing the grip from a given set of tires modern sports cars are, and how minimal the differences are between vehicles at widely differing price points. Even if you through a Z06 or a GT-R in there, there wouldn't be much in it. Remember the clip on Top Gear of an Evo vs a Lambo?
As I get older, I'm getting steadily more bored of people splitting hairs over the lap times achieved by street cars. How many of us are good enough drivers to extract everything a Subaru STi has to offer? Really? The only measurable objective difference between the performance envelope of modern sports cars is acceleration. In that regard, most people wind up finding that the 'sweet spot' in terms of that metric on a street car is mid/low-11s, trapping around 120-125. Yes, there are exceptions, but a Z06 is all the performance most of us can realistically handle, and more than enough to have huge fun driving it. Unless you get paid to win, what else genuinely matters?
I'm not arguing that we should never spend more than 30k on a performance car, just that when we do, we don't kid ourselves that what we're paying for is entirely performance-related. Mostly, it's some combination of brand image, build quality, ownership experience, driving pleasure, and aesthetics. If you really want to go fast, you need a downforce-and-slicks race car, and a bucketload more skill than most of us have at the moment.
Yes..I agree with you..laptimes are not so important..Im fine with a GT3 now - knowing that a GT2 could be here or there better..by the way - in th real world on normal track a GT2 cannot almost beat a GT3...the difference is only there if you have long straights..in circuits like Monaco for example a GT2 might even loose against GT3..because it just carries about 80Kg more.
Coming back to the subject...yes I am also amazed how the Mclaren got more than 1450KG..ok it was full of gas..but still..for me it shows again how good the 997 is already...and most drivers will not be able to spot the diffenence in lap times..as you say correctly.
By the way, for me these things are not so important either...I have just raised the issue of the brakes/weight of the MP4-12 as ther are people who still believe the Mcalren will be from another world and would overtake a GT2RS by 20sec.
PS: fully agree with that sentence too:
If you really want to go fast, you need a downforce-and-slicks race car, and a bucketload more skill than most of us have at the moment..if you wanna beat a GT2RS on track and Mclaren easily - just buy a 997 GT3CUP second hand..it can go around circuits in Europe (Austria, or Belgium) about 15secs faster than GT2RS..for less than half price!
take care,
#16
10-12-2011, 12:59 PM
#18
10-12-2011, 02:19 PM
But when the 458 did this lap time with Sport Auto, Ferrari had 4-5 mechanics there, and they even brought there own fuel.. Not sure if this was normal Michelin Pilot Sport since they also got several sets of tires.
Don't get me wrong, the Ferrari is a great, and very fast car, but I do not understand why they needed to bring a full crew to this test..
Don't get me wrong, the Ferrari is a great, and very fast car, but I do not understand why they needed to bring a full crew to this test..
#20
10-12-2011, 02:30 PM
wow..thanks for this...another UK magazine that smashes the Mclaren..cant believe it..there really must be something wrong with it..strangely - the German Press hasnt mentioend any of this - so far.
The 1 second gap to the RS - 450HP - OK it was a small circuit - is not really great either..
I will test drive the mclaren soon and will be able to report then..with some pictures and some impressions..and will be able to compare it to GT3/GT2/GT2RS that I have driven all..
thanks again for the link,