RUF Rt12
Oct 12, 2011 | 10:28 AM
#81
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,272
From: Houston/Manchester
Guys, can I throw a spanner into the RT12 love in ?
Firstly I love the RT12 and think it is an awesome overall car and very fast, reliable and handles well.
Despite what you may read noone had fully cracked how to program VTG engines like the factory does and ultimately the engines maximum output is always going to be limited to about 700hp (even using very expensive intercooling) due to the size and operation of the VTG producing too much heat.
Ruf is a clever guy and realised the above fairly early on and concentrated on optimising the 996tt engine platform using regular K24 type turbos and 996tt electronics.
The downside of this is these Ruf engines cannot have the response of a properly done VTG engine. Not peak power and peak torque, (the K24s can give this easily and reliably without the need for Secan type intercooling) but the response of hitting the throttle at anything over 2500rpm and getting a surreal VTG wall of torque which comes in much much faster than a spooling regular turbo.
It will be interesting to see where VTGs go, will Porsche persevere and make bigger, better VTG platforms ? if yes then the tuners will have to learn how to make them work properly as the regular turbos (torque delivery) will become reminiscent of the old 930s.....
Firstly I love the RT12 and think it is an awesome overall car and very fast, reliable and handles well.
Despite what you may read noone had fully cracked how to program VTG engines like the factory does and ultimately the engines maximum output is always going to be limited to about 700hp (even using very expensive intercooling) due to the size and operation of the VTG producing too much heat.
Ruf is a clever guy and realised the above fairly early on and concentrated on optimising the 996tt engine platform using regular K24 type turbos and 996tt electronics.
The downside of this is these Ruf engines cannot have the response of a properly done VTG engine. Not peak power and peak torque, (the K24s can give this easily and reliably without the need for Secan type intercooling) but the response of hitting the throttle at anything over 2500rpm and getting a surreal VTG wall of torque which comes in much much faster than a spooling regular turbo.
It will be interesting to see where VTGs go, will Porsche persevere and make bigger, better VTG platforms ? if yes then the tuners will have to learn how to make them work properly as the regular turbos (torque delivery) will become reminiscent of the old 930s.....
Oct 12, 2011 | 02:03 PM
#82
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 328
The downside of this is these Ruf engines cannot have the response of a properly done VTG engine. Not peak power and peak torque, (the K24s can give this easily and reliably without the need for Secan type intercooling) but the response of hitting the throttle at anything over 2500rpm and getting a surreal VTG wall of torque which comes in much much faster than a spooling regular turbo.
Oct 13, 2011 | 12:10 PM
#84
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 603
Guys, can I throw a spanner into the RT12 love in ?
Firstly I love the RT12 and think it is an awesome overall car and very fast, reliable and handles well.
Despite what you may read noone had fully cracked how to program VTG engines like the factory does and ultimately the engines maximum output is always going to be limited to about 700hp (even using very expensive intercooling) due to the size and operation of the VTG producing too much heat.
Ruf is a clever guy and realised the above fairly early on and concentrated on optimising the 996tt engine platform using regular K24 type turbos and 996tt electronics.
The downside of this is these Ruf engines cannot have the response of a properly done VTG engine. Not peak power and peak torque, (the K24s can give this easily and reliably without the need for Secan type intercooling) but the response of hitting the throttle at anything over 2500rpm and getting a surreal VTG wall of torque which comes in much much faster than a spooling regular turbo.
It will be interesting to see where VTGs go, will Porsche persevere and make bigger, better VTG platforms ? if yes then the tuners will have to learn how to make them work properly as the regular turbos (torque delivery) will become reminiscent of the old 930s.....
Firstly I love the RT12 and think it is an awesome overall car and very fast, reliable and handles well.
Despite what you may read noone had fully cracked how to program VTG engines like the factory does and ultimately the engines maximum output is always going to be limited to about 700hp (even using very expensive intercooling) due to the size and operation of the VTG producing too much heat.
Ruf is a clever guy and realised the above fairly early on and concentrated on optimising the 996tt engine platform using regular K24 type turbos and 996tt electronics.
The downside of this is these Ruf engines cannot have the response of a properly done VTG engine. Not peak power and peak torque, (the K24s can give this easily and reliably without the need for Secan type intercooling) but the response of hitting the throttle at anything over 2500rpm and getting a surreal VTG wall of torque which comes in much much faster than a spooling regular turbo.
It will be interesting to see where VTGs go, will Porsche persevere and make bigger, better VTG platforms ? if yes then the tuners will have to learn how to make them work properly as the regular turbos (torque delivery) will become reminiscent of the old 930s.....
i went through the learning curve with Ruf trying to use the vtg's for my rt12 in 2007 only to use the K 24's after 5 months of trying...
car was great though...
Oct 13, 2011 | 12:13 PM
#85
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 31,554
From: Zoo York
!! Now that's the spirit! Take some vids and pics while you are at it mate!
Oct 14, 2011 | 05:39 AM
#86
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 307
To get the VTG engines to work to the standards of Ruf and his protoge Reinhold Schmirler (who after creating the Yellowbird twin turbo engine for Alois went on to form RS Tuning) meant that RS hired the Bosch engineer who developed the software for Porsche for the original 997 turbo. It took them best part of a month of solid work with my engine on the engine dyno to fully program the GT2 factory ECU to work with 997 turbo intake system. The majority of the time was taken doing the part throttle stuff.
They used 5000 litres on fuel on the engine dyno and my then new 3.9 engine had to be fully rebuilt from the main bearings upwards inc new cylinders and pistons such was the intensity of the tuning !
The full build took 12 months and a few times they were undecided whether to carry on with the project as it was taking too much engine dyno time and expensive contracted in engineering.
As I said even with the project signed off and with the biggest VTGs they could make (you wanna hear the turbos when the boost shoots in at 2500rpm, it is unlike any other turbo noise I ever heard) the engine wont make more than about 700PS due to VTG related heat affecting intake temperatures.....
Ruf is a clever guy and the direction he chose has a lot of merit.
Oct 14, 2011 | 05:44 AM
#87
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 307
A taster of the problems. The first biggie was that the torque at 3000rpm destroyed the engine dyno they had used for 10+ years and they had to buy a brand new bigger one !
With the bigger engine dyno the torque coming in at 2XXXrpm kept breaking the driveshafts which they used to attach the engine to the dyno. This meant a new shaft @ 1600 Euro each and 5 hours labour to change out - this happened 3 times !
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