Tym Switzer Post: Exploring the Stock 997TT Engine
#22
10-31-2009, 07:01 PM
Absolutely, and the inherent strength of the motor and adaptability of the DME is, in many cases, what keeps these engines from coming apart while some of the "tooners" out there keep pushing forward with a trial-and-error approach.
Every day, there is a new post or advert. from somewhere talking about how these cars can't be reliable over 600 hp without internals. We proved that wrong with almost 30 daily driven 700/750 kits. A year or so later, those same posters and advertisers started saying you can't go over 700 hp without internals. A few months from now, after the first batch of P800s reach a trouble-free 12,000 mile mark with heavy track and media-test-drive abuse, 800 will be called "the upper limit" for engines without a full (and highly profitable!) internal build.
With as many moving parts as there are in a complicated assembly like a modern, multivalve turbo engine, there is obviously more to the equation than a simple "anything over ___ needs ___", and using scare tactics to sell expensive engine internals (or anything other unneeded service, for that matter) is just wrong.
Just. Plain. Wrong.
Thanks for listening - I'll get off my soapbox now.
Every day, there is a new post or advert. from somewhere talking about how these cars can't be reliable over 600 hp without internals. We proved that wrong with almost 30 daily driven 700/750 kits. A year or so later, those same posters and advertisers started saying you can't go over 700 hp without internals. A few months from now, after the first batch of P800s reach a trouble-free 12,000 mile mark with heavy track and media-test-drive abuse, 800 will be called "the upper limit" for engines without a full (and highly profitable!) internal build.
With as many moving parts as there are in a complicated assembly like a modern, multivalve turbo engine, there is obviously more to the equation than a simple "anything over ___ needs ___", and using scare tactics to sell expensive engine internals (or anything other unneeded service, for that matter) is just wrong.
Just. Plain. Wrong.
Thanks for listening - I'll get off my soapbox now.
I would like to offer my services for those daily driving tests on the P800
#23
10-31-2009, 07:20 PM
If the 997tt.2 does have an akra exhaust (first I heard of it - pic looks right !) it will be the muffler only like on the GT2 - this will not be $15K - try $2K for a manufacturing contract from Porsche AG
The $15K Akra stuff includes cats, housings and pipes in Ti and headers in Ti plus small volume production special mufflers.
The $15K Akra stuff includes cats, housings and pipes in Ti and headers in Ti plus small volume production special mufflers.
Sorry, but the GT2 picture I posted looks identical to the Akra system from their web site, inclusing the cats and the headers. I am sure Porsche pays less bu it does not look like just a cheaper muffler of their version. Even the stock muffler of the 997tt without cats and headers is over $3,000, not sayin' it is worth that much but the titanium exhaust is certainly more than $2,000. That's what you pay for titanium tips.
#24
10-31-2009, 08:05 PM
Sorry, but the GT2 picture I posted looks identical to the Akra system from their web site, inclusing the cats and the headers. I am sure Porsche pays less bu it does not look like just a cheaper muffler of their version. Even the stock muffler of the 997tt without cats and headers is over $3,000, not sayin' it is worth that much but the titanium exhaust is certainly more than $2,000. That's what you pay for titanium tips.
All I was trying to point out is that if Porsche is using Akra for the 997.2tt muffler then they will probably not be paying more than $2K per unit for the muffler - that is all..... I am not commenting on what we have to pay for stuff, just that a factory fitted Akra exhaust on the new 997.2tt will not be the expensive item you implied...
Edit: I just re-read what you wrote: do you think that the factory GT2 muffler is the same as the aftermarket one on their website ? I can tell you categorically that it is not. It is different in many ways, I know, you may be able to guess why
Last edited by TB993tt; 10-31-2009 at 08:07 PM.
#25
11-01-2009, 12:46 AM
Regardless, I've sent the pics over to Tym to get his (vastly more technical/qualified than my) opinion. My first thoughts looking at the pics you posted (again, not a tech/engineer) are that you would see similar damage on a totally stock engine with an over-rev, bad fuel/detonation, or else from boost coming on too quickly (tuning problem).
A quick Google search of "engine detonation bent rods" (without the "") yields a number of applicable examples, and as I'm reading through them (a Mazdaspeed forum and superchargersonline are open tabs in my browser as I type this) my basic level of understanding leads me to believe that this type of detonation damage is (or can be) caused by a fueling/timing issue (read: botched tune) and there is not any sort of direct 1:1 relationship with horsepower and/or peak boost numbers.
Heck, I've bent rods on both my Lancias, and they were NA cars (one mechanical over-rev from a botched up-shift, and one detonation issue).
In any event, I certainly didn't have those guys in mind when I wrote my little rant (think "Europe" and "expensive"), and I also don't think they're posting that as a targeted response to my/Tym's "Exploring the Limits" PR posts from a few days ago (SWITZER PERFORMANCE NEWS: Exploring The Limits). We're not that big on anyone's radar, that I'm aware of. We are, however, getting to work on our winter development projects - and so is Evoms, and so is everyone else. I would be surprised if there aren't more big announcements from the Benz and BMW tuners in the coming weeks, as well.
That said, we will continue developing thoroughly engineered 700+ hp bolt-on kits that we have total confidence in, and other shops will continue to sell $10-15K internal builds that they have confidence in. Just like extended warranties, additional rust-proofing, and dealer service agreements: to some people, added security just seems like a good idea, no matter what the cost. That's no reason we can't all get along, you know?
#27
11-01-2009, 07:01 AM
Regardless, I've sent the pics over to Tym to get his (vastly more technical/qualified than my) opinion. My first thoughts looking at the pics you posted (again, not a tech/engineer) are that you would see similar damage on a totally stock engine with an over-rev, bad fuel/detonation, or else from boost coming on too quickly (tuning problem.
Last edited by bbywu; 11-01-2009 at 07:06 AM.
#28
11-01-2009, 09:05 AM
I think the previous owner had purchased his car stock, then upgraded with different tuners along the way, running anywhere between 1.4 to 1.55 with 11.9 to 12.9 AFRs. I guess what I'm wondering is if it is at all possible that the damage was done earlier with one of the previous tuners before he converted to the EVOMs GT700 kit, and whether or not the rod was bent/cracked all that time? After all, he was running 1.55 bar with a stock fuel system.
#29
11-01-2009, 10:14 AM
DK
It isn't "theory" and it isn't "EVO's"........
It is obvious from Tym's "technical" splurge above that he is a newbie to Porsche and doesn't know the history of these engines.
The engines weak points are well known because they were raced to destruction.....as Todd says, why are you guys so hell bent (no pun intended) on stock internals ? It is not a badge of honour, it just shows that you don't know that much about this engine and its background......
It isn't "theory" and it isn't "EVO's"........
It is obvious from Tym's "technical" splurge above that he is a newbie to Porsche and doesn't know the history of these engines.
The engines weak points are well known because they were raced to destruction.....as Todd says, why are you guys so hell bent (no pun intended) on stock internals ? It is not a badge of honour, it just shows that you don't know that much about this engine and its background......
#30
11-01-2009, 04:36 PM
I think the previous owner had purchased his car stock, then upgraded with different tuners along the way, running anywhere between 1.4 to 1.55 with 11.9 to 12.9 AFRs. I guess what I'm wondering is if it is at all possible that the damage was done earlier with one of the previous tuners before he converted to the EVOMs GT700 kit, and whether or not the rod was bent/cracked all that time? After all, he was running 1.55 bar with a stock fuel system.