What would you have done?
Aug 19, 2008 | 09:19 PM
#11
Official TS Crybaby - Forever
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,861
From: the death star
I think the shooter gave the psycho enough chances, its just collateral damage(or whatever ya wanna call it) as far as I'm concerned.
It was "suicide by good samaratin." Instead of suicide by cop.
It was "suicide by good samaratin." Instead of suicide by cop.
Last edited by Ryan in SD; Aug 19, 2008 at 09:30 PM.
Aug 19, 2008 | 10:22 PM
#13
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,871
From: Montreal, CA
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
Aug 19, 2008 | 11:52 PM
#14
Official TS Crybaby - Forever
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,861
From: the death star
This is not what was happening.
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
Lets bring up that story of the nut case on the bus that cut off the other guys head that was sitting next to him...remember that one a few weeks ago?
You never know what you're dealing with until its too late so taking things 100% seriously is a better way to ensure safety for you and those around you.
This story is a victory for the good guys because THE GOOD PEOPLE ARE STILL ALIVE. The lunatic is dead...although that was not intentional but thats his problem and hes too dead to care now.
BTW, locking yourself in a car is making you a sitting duck, windows are somewhat easy to break. The lady panicked, you can't blame a traumatized fleeing road rage victim for anything that she did! Who knows what was going through her mind.
-
How much experience do you have with people that are out to hurt others? It just sounds like you have no idea. Its like you think all he wanted to do was vent his frustrations on the car. Sometime that is the case but everything that happened was a direct result of his hostility. He wound up dead because of it. No excuses.
Last edited by Ryan in SD; Aug 19, 2008 at 11:56 PM.
Aug 20, 2008 | 07:37 AM
#15
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 350
This is not what was happening.
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
at what point would you expect someone to get out of the car and shoot the guy??
I think what the author did was justified. We could all sit here and be armchair quarterbacks, the fact is that the author used what he thought was justified force in handling the situation.
If I was the only one around, maybe I wouldnt have shot the guy, I would have jumped in my car and driven away. But I hope that nobody would leave another person behind while saving their own skin. The pregnant lady could have been your sister or wife etc. Wouldnt you want someone defend her if she was in a situation like that instead of letting her fend for herself?
Aug 20, 2008 | 11:39 AM
#16
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,528
From: New Jersey
Here is a sad example of what can happen when nobody is around that can protect themselves or others from harm. Very similar initial events that turned out much different.
What would you have done in this case Zorro?
If somebody had happened to be there with a gun and killed this attacker, would you call them a murderer too?
How is this situation any different, other than the outcome?
AP article from today. FOXNews.com - Minor Fender-Bender Leads to Murderous Rampage in Fla. - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
What would you have done in this case Zorro?
If somebody had happened to be there with a gun and killed this attacker, would you call them a murderer too?
How is this situation any different, other than the outcome?
AP article from today. FOXNews.com - Minor Fender-Bender Leads to Murderous Rampage in Fla. - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
Minor Fender-Bender Leads to Murderous Rampage in Fla.
Wednesday, August 20, 2008
LAKE HAMILTON, Fla. — A Florida man was arrested after allegedly going on a violent rampage after a minor fender-bender, slashing and stabbing the occupants of a car, then running over and killing a woman who had been riding in another nearby vehicle.
Casey Weldon Till, 26, of Haines City, faces murder and carjacking charges after the attacks involving family members traveling in two vehicles.
The Polk County Sheriff's Office tracked Till to his home through a pill bottle left at the scene late Sunday night. Police allege that he killed Odalis Cespedes, 41, by running her over twice. Till told police he was high on crack at the time.
The violence apparently unfolded after Till's minivan slammed into a stopped car being driven by Cespedes' daughter, 19-year-old Ivon Despaigne, and her boyfriend, 21-year-old Angel Gonzalez, of Kissimmee. When the couple got out to check the damage, Till allegedly slashed Gonzalez's throat and stabbed Despaigne in the neck.
Investigators say Till then got into the couple's car and repeatedly rammed the vehicle ahead, occupied by Cespedes, her husband, 41-year-old Mario Despaigne, and their 6-month-old granddaughter.
The couple got their granddaughter out of the car seat and Cespedes was trying to flee with the baby in her arms when she was killed, Mario Despaigne said in an interview with The Ledger, which was conducted through an interpreter.
Mario Despaigne said Till drove over his wife's leg, then ran over her again after seeing she was still moving. Despaigne said he grabbed the baby. Then Gonzalez got into Till's van and hit him, then tried to back over him, but Till rolled out of the way, according to the arrest report.
Till then allegedly ran back to his van, ignoring commands to stop from a Lake Hamilton police officer who happened upon the scene. Till sped off, hitting officer David Hurst in the arm and midsection with the van's open door.
Till had locked himself in his bathroom and cut his wrists by the time investigators found him, the report said. He allegedly admitted the attacks to his wife and mother.
The police report listed Gonzalez and Ivon Despaigne in critical condition, but a local hospital would not provide information about their condition Tuesday.
Till was being held Tuesday in the Polk County Jail on charges of murder, attempted murder, aggravated battery on a law enforcement officer, carjacking and improper exhibition of a weapon. It was not immediately known if Till had an attorney.
Wednesday, August 20, 2008
LAKE HAMILTON, Fla. — A Florida man was arrested after allegedly going on a violent rampage after a minor fender-bender, slashing and stabbing the occupants of a car, then running over and killing a woman who had been riding in another nearby vehicle.
Casey Weldon Till, 26, of Haines City, faces murder and carjacking charges after the attacks involving family members traveling in two vehicles.
The Polk County Sheriff's Office tracked Till to his home through a pill bottle left at the scene late Sunday night. Police allege that he killed Odalis Cespedes, 41, by running her over twice. Till told police he was high on crack at the time.
The violence apparently unfolded after Till's minivan slammed into a stopped car being driven by Cespedes' daughter, 19-year-old Ivon Despaigne, and her boyfriend, 21-year-old Angel Gonzalez, of Kissimmee. When the couple got out to check the damage, Till allegedly slashed Gonzalez's throat and stabbed Despaigne in the neck.
Investigators say Till then got into the couple's car and repeatedly rammed the vehicle ahead, occupied by Cespedes, her husband, 41-year-old Mario Despaigne, and their 6-month-old granddaughter.
The couple got their granddaughter out of the car seat and Cespedes was trying to flee with the baby in her arms when she was killed, Mario Despaigne said in an interview with The Ledger, which was conducted through an interpreter.
Mario Despaigne said Till drove over his wife's leg, then ran over her again after seeing she was still moving. Despaigne said he grabbed the baby. Then Gonzalez got into Till's van and hit him, then tried to back over him, but Till rolled out of the way, according to the arrest report.
Till then allegedly ran back to his van, ignoring commands to stop from a Lake Hamilton police officer who happened upon the scene. Till sped off, hitting officer David Hurst in the arm and midsection with the van's open door.
Till had locked himself in his bathroom and cut his wrists by the time investigators found him, the report said. He allegedly admitted the attacks to his wife and mother.
The police report listed Gonzalez and Ivon Despaigne in critical condition, but a local hospital would not provide information about their condition Tuesday.
Till was being held Tuesday in the Polk County Jail on charges of murder, attempted murder, aggravated battery on a law enforcement officer, carjacking and improper exhibition of a weapon. It was not immediately known if Till had an attorney.
Aug 20, 2008 | 12:19 PM
#17
TeH Ears
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,188
From: Atlanta
This is not what was happening.
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
Let me re-read that story.
Dude got rear ended, got mad at the lady and her kids, she temporarily got away ... until she ran out? Leaving her kid in an open car with a psycho nearby? Now that is what I call *ucked up.
Anyways. Back to my first remark ... close windows, lock doors.
How is that effective?
Back to later on ... psycho is as dumb as a bag of bolts and pounds on a car window/door. Back to "close windows lock doors".
Give the enraged idiots space is what I meant. Getting passively involved, ie giving them something to "play with" and take their attention off what really matters, people. Give them your car to beat on ... as long as everyone's safe. I wouldn't mind if the guy pulled out a tire iron and ruined my car.
As mentioned, I don't think he "was there" either ... which brings back to my let the steam out point. Oppressing the guy will only make things worse, IMO.
Getting beaten to a pulp? Is the guy Chuck Liddell? He's probably drunk/high ... how lame do you have to be to get your ass kicked? We're all internet e-thugs anyways. There again, I'd rather get beaten to a pulp while my g/f locks the doors of the car.
Cliff notes - Guy was not dismembering anyone (the lady was able to get out of trouble on her own by driving away a bit), and putting him under more pressure at that time brought out more psychoness is what I believe.
This being said, considering how it had escalated, I can't blame the guy for shooting when the psycho when for his pocket. However, there is no self-defense, the psycho was not identified as armed, he's still a murderer. For those of you who will inevitably say "oh he had to wait to get shot?" ... he was already aiming for the psycho, it'll be hard for him not to shoot first.
There again, I live in a place where people are normal and don't get mad or kill each other for next to nothing ... not much experience on the subject.
Thank you for the thoughtful response Z.
That said...
The guy was obviously on a rampage, and he was out to cause much bodily harm. This guy, by shooting the animal, did resolve the situation with reasonable force. None of what he did makes him less than "normal".
There is nothing less than normal when escalating force against and already violent assailant. You point out that you don't have experience on the subject, but that does not mean that it doesn't happen in your country. The reality is that it does happen in your country, you just don't hear about it.
This type of thing happening is also a circumstance of people turning a blind eye to it as well, by choosing not to get involved. Criminals and idiots like the criminal in this story do this thing because they're not afraid of the consequences. In the US, we do not do a good job of punishing criminals. So they don't care if they get arrrested. I'd bet that this new dirt napper had a criminal history. People new to such activity don't typically lash out as violently.
NO good would have come by simply locking the car up, none. The only way that was going to end was by someone stepping up. The reality is that there is a better than even chance that the private citizen with the gun, is a better shot than the police. Police are not bound by law to protect, they are bound to respond to a crime; and the reality is that most cops are NOT good shots at all. I know this from a personal level.
So what would have happened is that they guy would have continued to beat on this woman, in front of her kid, or possibly done something to the kid; the police would have eventually showed up to a bloody scene, most likely having to chase the guy because he would have fled. So your actions would have allowed another human to be victimized, and given the assailant every chance to get away. The damage to that person would have been worse, and now the police would have to conduct a manhunt.
This was the best outcome. We as individuals need to be responsible for our own safety, because law enforcement is not.
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