10 things non-gun people should know about CWP holders.
May 29, 2008 | 09:01 AM
#11
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 60
From: Stockholm
With all due respect, you still don't get it and I doubt you ever will. Statistics do not show what you state.
Just for arguments sake, I will give you the benefit and ask you to post your source of the statistics that show CWP holders as major contributors to a rise in handgun-related crime in the US.
Please respond promptly.
Just for arguments sake, I will give you the benefit and ask you to post your source of the statistics that show CWP holders as major contributors to a rise in handgun-related crime in the US.
Please respond promptly.
What is there not to get?
I never fear being shot in Sweden. Never. I cant say i feel the same while
in the states.
I can not see how more guns in the hands of more people will help solve anything.
Easy access to guns is one obvious reasons to why people keep shooting eachother on your streets.
May 29, 2008 | 09:37 AM
#13
TeH Ears
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,188
From: Atlanta
On a per population basis, you guys in the oh so safe, enlightened country's have more non-gun related violent crimes than we do in the United States. You have more attacks using other weapons such as knives, fists, clubs, etc.
The problem that we have in the United States is that we do not truly punish criminals.
A gun is not an object that causes crime. It is the invdividual. You people that are afraid of guns love to tout the "access to guns" line, and that is just silly because when that logic is applied to other means used to commit violent crimes; the argument falls apart.
The problem that we have in the United States is that we do not truly punish criminals.
A gun is not an object that causes crime. It is the invdividual. You people that are afraid of guns love to tout the "access to guns" line, and that is just silly because when that logic is applied to other means used to commit violent crimes; the argument falls apart.
May 29, 2008 | 01:50 PM
#15
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 60
From: Stockholm
On a per population basis, you guys in the oh so safe, enlightened country's have more non-gun related violent crimes than we do in the United States. You have more attacks using other weapons such as knives, fists, clubs, etc.
The problem that we have in the United States is that we do not truly punish criminals.
A gun is not an object that causes crime. It is the invdividual. You people that are afraid of guns love to tout the "access to guns" line, and that is just silly because when that logic is applied to other means used to commit violent crimes; the argument falls apart.
The problem that we have in the United States is that we do not truly punish criminals.
A gun is not an object that causes crime. It is the invdividual. You people that are afraid of guns love to tout the "access to guns" line, and that is just silly because when that logic is applied to other means used to commit violent crimes; the argument falls apart.
I Believe that more guns wont help.
And to keep this on a still friendly note, if not tot late, I will be a Euro-snob and try some sarcasm:
Please, If you ever visit any part of the civilized world, promise to PM me first. Let me have time to hide and protect my loved ones. Especially if you believe that you dont punish criminals hard enough in th US.
May 29, 2008 | 09:59 PM
#16
TeH Ears
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,188
From: Atlanta
I've already infiltrated your country my friend! I plan on coming back! 
Hide your loved ones! Funny thing about my visits to Sweden... Once the people that I spoke to got over the shock that a former barbarian, known as a US Army soldier was able to speak intelligently; and wasn't slaying innocents, there were some changed perceptions.
Funny thing about the "civilized" world... They sure have needed saving, quite a bit... We bad ole meanies with guns happily obliged to step up and help; and have never asked for more than ground to bury our dead.
Hide your loved ones! Funny thing about my visits to Sweden... Once the people that I spoke to got over the shock that a former barbarian, known as a US Army soldier was able to speak intelligently; and wasn't slaying innocents, there were some changed perceptions. Funny thing about the "civilized" world... They sure have needed saving, quite a bit... We bad ole meanies with guns happily obliged to step up and help; and have never asked for more than ground to bury our dead.
May 29, 2008 | 10:46 PM
#17
Thread Starter
| I'm closing this thread.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,610
From: Atlanta Metro-East
Your post is totally irrelevant to statistics in the US. I asked for statistics that proved your point in the US, not Australia. The original post in this thread applies to CWP holders in the US.
Here's an excerpt from a wiki page on concealed carry in the US.
Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In his book, More Guns, Less Crime, pro-gun scholar John Lott's analysis of crime report data has shown some statistically significant effects of concealed carry laws. One major conclusion was that locations which enacted more permissive concealed carry laws had a decrease in violent crime but an increase in property crime. The possible reasons for this rise in property crime are twofold:
* Property crimes include trespassing, and concealed-carry statutes that include prohibited-area laws introduce the possibility of trespass where the individual would otherwise be in violation of a weapons law by carrying concealed (e.g. unlawful carry) or would not carry and be lawful.
* Concealed carry allows potential victims of violent crime to prevent such crime; as a result, the assailant, if not fatally shot, is instead charged with a property crime such as burglary instead of homicide.
In both cases, crime is reduced overall, and criminal activity that does occur is recategorized as to type and severity because of the effects of the change in law.
Regardless of the interpretation of statistics, the trend in the United States has been towards greater permissiveness of concealed carry[citation needed]. In Florida, which first introduced "shall-issue" concealed carry laws, crimes committed against residents dropped markedly upon the general issuance of concealed-carry licenses,[28] which had the unintended consequence of putting tourists in Florida driving marked rental cars at risk from criminals since tourists may be readily presumed unarmed[citation needed]. Florida responded by enacting laws prohibiting the obvious marking of rental cars. In 1991, the Luby's massacre prompted Texas lawmakers to pass a concealed carry law that came into effect in 1995.[29]
Research comparing various countries' violent crime rates, murder rates, and crimes committed with weapons, have found that legal ownership of guns, including concealed carry guns, generally reduces crime rates.[30][27]
Figured I should add this.
NCPA - Concealed Carry Laws Reduce Crime
And an excerpt:
According to the study, the fall in crime did not result from an increased use of guns, but from potential criminals avoiding confrontations. In fact, criminals apparently shifted to lower-risk offenses, since property crimes increased in those states. Other findings included:
* The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.
* The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.
* If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.
In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.
Here's an excerpt from a wiki page on concealed carry in the US.
Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In his book, More Guns, Less Crime, pro-gun scholar John Lott's analysis of crime report data has shown some statistically significant effects of concealed carry laws. One major conclusion was that locations which enacted more permissive concealed carry laws had a decrease in violent crime but an increase in property crime. The possible reasons for this rise in property crime are twofold:
* Property crimes include trespassing, and concealed-carry statutes that include prohibited-area laws introduce the possibility of trespass where the individual would otherwise be in violation of a weapons law by carrying concealed (e.g. unlawful carry) or would not carry and be lawful.
* Concealed carry allows potential victims of violent crime to prevent such crime; as a result, the assailant, if not fatally shot, is instead charged with a property crime such as burglary instead of homicide.
In both cases, crime is reduced overall, and criminal activity that does occur is recategorized as to type and severity because of the effects of the change in law.
Regardless of the interpretation of statistics, the trend in the United States has been towards greater permissiveness of concealed carry[citation needed]. In Florida, which first introduced "shall-issue" concealed carry laws, crimes committed against residents dropped markedly upon the general issuance of concealed-carry licenses,[28] which had the unintended consequence of putting tourists in Florida driving marked rental cars at risk from criminals since tourists may be readily presumed unarmed[citation needed]. Florida responded by enacting laws prohibiting the obvious marking of rental cars. In 1991, the Luby's massacre prompted Texas lawmakers to pass a concealed carry law that came into effect in 1995.[29]
Research comparing various countries' violent crime rates, murder rates, and crimes committed with weapons, have found that legal ownership of guns, including concealed carry guns, generally reduces crime rates.[30][27]
Figured I should add this.
NCPA - Concealed Carry Laws Reduce Crime
And an excerpt:
According to the study, the fall in crime did not result from an increased use of guns, but from potential criminals avoiding confrontations. In fact, criminals apparently shifted to lower-risk offenses, since property crimes increased in those states. Other findings included:
* The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.
* The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.
* If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.
In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.
With all due respect, I absoultely do get it.
I never feel threatened in my own home, or in my daily travels anywhere in my country. I never fear being held up, home invaded or shot with a weapon in any instance. Do you? If not, why do you feel the need to carry in daily life?
I live in Australia, we have (along with the UK) some of the strictest gun laws in the world. It's a 6 month exercise to get a licence here, including detailed background checks from law enforcement, proof of membership to a gun club (and continual licence participation) along with proof of hunting. There are also huge restrictions as to the weapons you can possess, eg. No semi-automatic rifles and huge limitations of handguns (totally different licence category with differing requirements and probationary periods of 6+ months plus minimum 4 shoots per year to keep your licence). There is plenty of reading on Australian Gun Laws here
Proof in point. In my state of NSW with a population of 5 million, 15 people were killed with firearms in 2006.
What part of "its your country, do as you wish" were you unable to appreciate. Fact is, its simple arithmetic, little or no gun laws lead to more weapons, which leads to more access, which in turn ultimately leads to higher rates of gun crime(s) and shootings.
I'd like to see an argument stating that people having the right to carry in a Westernised society leads to reduced gun crime and murder rates when comparative to societies with stringent gun laws governing their availability and use.
Case in point.
In 1996, we had a huge massacre which in turn lead to the massive overhaul of gun laws in the country. That one incident accounted for over 6% of all deaths (35, with an additional 37 injured in the one incident) that year (totally 521).
By comparison, in the same year in the US you had 34,040 people killed with firearms. How would you explain the huge descrepency? Population size isn't even a factor, if you put them on an even keel US gun rates are still around 500% higher.
Our gun crime and murder rate with weapons has decreased across the board substantially since the new laws have come into effect.
I never feel threatened in my own home, or in my daily travels anywhere in my country. I never fear being held up, home invaded or shot with a weapon in any instance. Do you? If not, why do you feel the need to carry in daily life?
I live in Australia, we have (along with the UK) some of the strictest gun laws in the world. It's a 6 month exercise to get a licence here, including detailed background checks from law enforcement, proof of membership to a gun club (and continual licence participation) along with proof of hunting. There are also huge restrictions as to the weapons you can possess, eg. No semi-automatic rifles and huge limitations of handguns (totally different licence category with differing requirements and probationary periods of 6+ months plus minimum 4 shoots per year to keep your licence). There is plenty of reading on Australian Gun Laws here
Proof in point. In my state of NSW with a population of 5 million, 15 people were killed with firearms in 2006.
What part of "its your country, do as you wish" were you unable to appreciate. Fact is, its simple arithmetic, little or no gun laws lead to more weapons, which leads to more access, which in turn ultimately leads to higher rates of gun crime(s) and shootings.
I'd like to see an argument stating that people having the right to carry in a Westernised society leads to reduced gun crime and murder rates when comparative to societies with stringent gun laws governing their availability and use.
Case in point.
In 1996, we had a huge massacre which in turn lead to the massive overhaul of gun laws in the country. That one incident accounted for over 6% of all deaths (35, with an additional 37 injured in the one incident) that year (totally 521).
By comparison, in the same year in the US you had 34,040 people killed with firearms. How would you explain the huge descrepency? Population size isn't even a factor, if you put them on an even keel US gun rates are still around 500% higher.
Our gun crime and murder rate with weapons has decreased across the board substantially since the new laws have come into effect.
Last edited by Alex; May 29, 2008 at 10:58 PM.
May 29, 2008 | 11:35 PM
#18
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,871
From: Montreal, CA
May 30, 2008 | 03:30 AM
#19
Teamspeed Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 167
From: Sydney, Australia
Alex, I see what you are saying. If you read the thread, I agreed with Kowalsky's view point and was extending on it.
My point isn't irrelevant, it is irrelevant in regards to your CWP. I wouldn't know where to begin to counter finding information on citizens who carry as opposed to States that have laws forbidding it. Nor do I feel the inclination to, my original post, and secondary post in this thread backed up my belief and statement that more guns in the hands of more people leads to higher volumes of gun crime and homicides.
You can argue that CWP limits that risk, and I ask again as I did in my previous post. If where you live is so safe, why do you feel the need to carry in your day to day life? If you had more stringent controls for the access to firearms in the population it is concievable to draw the conclusion that you will have reduced firearm related homicides and crime, I provided links both here in Australia and in the US to support my view.
I've proved my point, statistics show Gun crime occurs at much higher rates in Countries where access to firearms is much easier, if the US had much tighter gun controls 34,000+ people a year wouldn't have been killed by firearms in the past.
As a footnote, I'm a shooter.
I'd be interested in seeing statistical information based on a sample size of the population (like I provided in my previous post) that supports your initial point, I don't believe that to be the case.
In Australia, you could quite conceivably make the same argument that we don't truly punish criminals (we have no Death Penalty) and many convictions receive poor or weak sentences.
Just because I think its irresponsible to have citizens of the population armed in their daily lives doesn't mean I'm anti-gun. And as my original post stated, its your country and your laws so whatever works for you.
I think when you stack the argument against comparable Western societies your gun laws and ease of access to high powered automatic and semi automatic weapons doesn't stack up that arming the general population leads to a safer society.
My point isn't irrelevant, it is irrelevant in regards to your CWP. I wouldn't know where to begin to counter finding information on citizens who carry as opposed to States that have laws forbidding it. Nor do I feel the inclination to, my original post, and secondary post in this thread backed up my belief and statement that more guns in the hands of more people leads to higher volumes of gun crime and homicides.
You can argue that CWP limits that risk, and I ask again as I did in my previous post. If where you live is so safe, why do you feel the need to carry in your day to day life? If you had more stringent controls for the access to firearms in the population it is concievable to draw the conclusion that you will have reduced firearm related homicides and crime, I provided links both here in Australia and in the US to support my view.
I've proved my point, statistics show Gun crime occurs at much higher rates in Countries where access to firearms is much easier, if the US had much tighter gun controls 34,000+ people a year wouldn't have been killed by firearms in the past.
As a footnote, I'm a shooter.
On a per population basis, you guys in the oh so safe, enlightened country's have more non-gun related violent crimes than we do in the United States. You have more attacks using other weapons such as knives, fists, clubs, etc.
The problem that we have in the United States is that we do not truly punish criminals.
A gun is not an object that causes crime. It is the invdividual. You people that are afraid of guns love to tout the "access to guns" line, and that is just silly because when that logic is applied to other means used to commit violent crimes; the argument falls apart.
The problem that we have in the United States is that we do not truly punish criminals.
A gun is not an object that causes crime. It is the invdividual. You people that are afraid of guns love to tout the "access to guns" line, and that is just silly because when that logic is applied to other means used to commit violent crimes; the argument falls apart.
In Australia, you could quite conceivably make the same argument that we don't truly punish criminals (we have no Death Penalty) and many convictions receive poor or weak sentences.
Just because I think its irresponsible to have citizens of the population armed in their daily lives doesn't mean I'm anti-gun. And as my original post stated, its your country and your laws so whatever works for you.
I think when you stack the argument against comparable Western societies your gun laws and ease of access to high powered automatic and semi automatic weapons doesn't stack up that arming the general population leads to a safer society.
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