Great Collegiate Basketball Performances
Jan 14, 2009 | 04:45 PM
#15
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Posts: 23,875
From: Orange County
I saw David Robinson play a game in 1986 against UNLV in which he scored 51 points - the whole Navy squad only put up 68!! UNLV Won 105-68.
Jan 14, 2009 | 05:03 PM
#17
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 502
NBA was in a cycle of "Magic Johnson-sized" PG's when Chris came out of school. He had moderate success and when he converted to Muslim, he tried to play at 145 lbs (that doesn't work for anyone). The cycle started to change and Iverson accelerated back to "small" PG's were ok and even desirable. In today's NBA game, CJ would have been a great player (playing at a normal wieght).
Keep in mind, Worthy was gone after MJ's Freshman Year and Perkins was a really good role player but not a "go to" guy. DT played with Tommy Burleson who was the 2nd best center at the time (UCLA had this guy named Walton) and he camped his 7'3" body in the low post. Tim Stoddard started at Power Forward and later pitched for the O's in the bigs.
Bias, Reggie Lewis and the Duncan ping pong ball hurt the Celtics for years.
Keep in mind, Worthy was gone after MJ's Freshman Year and Perkins was a really good role player but not a "go to" guy. DT played with Tommy Burleson who was the 2nd best center at the time (UCLA had this guy named Walton) and he camped his 7'3" body in the low post. Tim Stoddard started at Power Forward and later pitched for the O's in the bigs.
Bias, Reggie Lewis and the Duncan ping pong ball hurt the Celtics for years.
1. John Stockton-UTA 1134
2. Magic Johnson*-LAL 907
3. Muggsy Bogues-CHH 867
4. Kevin Johnson-PHO 846
5. Isiah Thomas*-DET 765
6. Terry Porter-POR 726
7. Tim Hardaway-GSW 689
8. Mark Price-CLE 666
9. Darrell Walker-WSB 652
10. Sherman Douglas-MIA 619
11. Vern Fleming-IND 610
12. Derek Harper-DAL 609
13. Mark Jackson-NYK 604
14. Johnny Dawkins-PHI 601
15. Sleepy Floyd-HOU 600
16. Nate McMillan-SEA 598
17. Larry Bird*-BOS 562
18. Pooh Richardson-MIN 554
19. Michael Jordan-CHI 519
20. Fat Lever-DEN 517
As you can see from the Top 10, other than Magic, not a single guy would ever be mistaken as anything besides a point guard in terms of height/build. Muggsy was 5'3". Even amongst the 11-20 spots, only Bird, Jordan & arguably Lever were not of the atypical 5'10" to 6'2" PG build and style.
In terms of any height trends for the PG spot that might have occurred following CJ's rookie season and several thereafter, there were simply not a preponderance of "big, Magic-style" PGs amongst the assists league leaders. Sure, Pippen made the Top 20 then Top 10, Drexler showed up on the Top 20 and Gary Payton arguably had SG height. But so too did guys like Michael Adams & Scott Skiles place amongst the Top 10 and Top 5. For everytime there was a Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Jalen Rose, Detlef Schrempf or Jason Kidd coming along, so too were 5x the number of "typical" PGs who placed above them in the assists category.
CJ was a great offensive force in college that couldn't make the leap to the star level in the pros. His top-tier quickness in college looked barely above-average in the NBA, as evidenced by the fact that his steals average was well below what one would expect from someone as short as he was. Easily at least half of the top 20 leaders in steals in any given season will be at the PG spot. CJ was never at that level.
In today's game, CJ would still be an average player.
Jan 14, 2009 | 05:03 PM
#18
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,359
From: Knoxville, TN
Jan 14, 2009 | 09:03 PM
#19
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 362
NBA's always placed a premium on size, but there have been few, if any, PGs who would push Magic in terms of size. Here are the league leaders in assists for the '89-'90 season before CJ got drafted:
1. John Stockton-UTA 1134
2. Magic Johnson*-LAL 907
3. Muggsy Bogues-CHH 867
4. Kevin Johnson-PHO 846
5. Isiah Thomas*-DET 765
6. Terry Porter-POR 726
7. Tim Hardaway-GSW 689
8. Mark Price-CLE 666
9. Darrell Walker-WSB 652
10. Sherman Douglas-MIA 619
11. Vern Fleming-IND 610
12. Derek Harper-DAL 609
13. Mark Jackson-NYK 604
14. Johnny Dawkins-PHI 601
15. Sleepy Floyd-HOU 600
16. Nate McMillan-SEA 598
17. Larry Bird*-BOS 562
18. Pooh Richardson-MIN 554
19. Michael Jordan-CHI 519
20. Fat Lever-DEN 517
As you can see from the Top 10, other than Magic, not a single guy would ever be mistaken as anything besides a point guard in terms of height/build. Muggsy was 5'3". Even amongst the 11-20 spots, only Bird, Jordan & arguably Lever were not of the atypical 5'10" to 6'2" PG build and style.
In terms of any height trends for the PG spot that might have occurred following CJ's rookie season and several thereafter, there were simply not a preponderance of "big, Magic-style" PGs amongst the assists league leaders. Sure, Pippen made the Top 20 then Top 10, Drexler showed up on the Top 20 and Gary Payton arguably had SG height. But so too did guys like Michael Adams & Scott Skiles place amongst the Top 10 and Top 5. For everytime there was a Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Jalen Rose, Detlef Schrempf or Jason Kidd coming along, so too were 5x the number of "typical" PGs who placed above them in the assists category.
CJ was a great offensive force in college that couldn't make the leap to the star level in the pros. His top-tier quickness in college looked barely above-average in the NBA, as evidenced by the fact that his steals average was well below what one would expect from someone as short as he was. Easily at least half of the top 20 leaders in steals in any given season will be at the PG spot. CJ was never at that level.
In today's game, CJ would still be an average player.
1. John Stockton-UTA 1134
2. Magic Johnson*-LAL 907
3. Muggsy Bogues-CHH 867
4. Kevin Johnson-PHO 846
5. Isiah Thomas*-DET 765
6. Terry Porter-POR 726
7. Tim Hardaway-GSW 689
8. Mark Price-CLE 666
9. Darrell Walker-WSB 652
10. Sherman Douglas-MIA 619
11. Vern Fleming-IND 610
12. Derek Harper-DAL 609
13. Mark Jackson-NYK 604
14. Johnny Dawkins-PHI 601
15. Sleepy Floyd-HOU 600
16. Nate McMillan-SEA 598
17. Larry Bird*-BOS 562
18. Pooh Richardson-MIN 554
19. Michael Jordan-CHI 519
20. Fat Lever-DEN 517
As you can see from the Top 10, other than Magic, not a single guy would ever be mistaken as anything besides a point guard in terms of height/build. Muggsy was 5'3". Even amongst the 11-20 spots, only Bird, Jordan & arguably Lever were not of the atypical 5'10" to 6'2" PG build and style.
In terms of any height trends for the PG spot that might have occurred following CJ's rookie season and several thereafter, there were simply not a preponderance of "big, Magic-style" PGs amongst the assists league leaders. Sure, Pippen made the Top 20 then Top 10, Drexler showed up on the Top 20 and Gary Payton arguably had SG height. But so too did guys like Michael Adams & Scott Skiles place amongst the Top 10 and Top 5. For everytime there was a Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Jalen Rose, Detlef Schrempf or Jason Kidd coming along, so too were 5x the number of "typical" PGs who placed above them in the assists category.
CJ was a great offensive force in college that couldn't make the leap to the star level in the pros. His top-tier quickness in college looked barely above-average in the NBA, as evidenced by the fact that his steals average was well below what one would expect from someone as short as he was. Easily at least half of the top 20 leaders in steals in any given season will be at the PG spot. CJ was never at that level.
In today's game, CJ would still be an average player.
Review how many small "shooting" guards or now known as "combo" guards were prevalent. Zero on your list and a push to argue Price and Hardaway.
Jan 14, 2009 | 10:00 PM
#20
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 502
Nowadays, if you look at the successful combo guards trapped in a PG's body, they all possess some aspects of the above. AI was long considered the quickest player in the NBA, plus he had the other 5 attributes I mentioned. Monta Ellis (pre-injury) is widely considered one of the quickest players in the game, hopefully still has great hops and is definitely one of the best finishers in the NBA. Leandro Barbosa is another that's always mentioned in the "quickest in the NBA" discussion, and he's probably the closest current equivalent to CJ.
CJ didn't have what it took to be a superior player in the NBA (then or now), and he never was able to justify being taken #3 in the draft (of what was widely panned as one of the worst drafts in recent history).
On a side note, I'd argue that Isiah Thomas was a good enough shooter to be a small 2.
Last edited by fusionstorm; Jan 14, 2009 at 10:07 PM.
