The Teamspeed Porsche 991 Information Thread!! (991 Spy Shots only Thread)
Jun 30, 2011 | 01:37 AM
#261
Thread Starter
| Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 31,554
From: Zoo York
First Ride: 2012 Porsche 911 by Inside Line
Inside Line gets a close up with the All-New 911
Know anyone who seriously thinks the current 911 needs replacing? Probably not. But Porsche thinks otherwise. The 2012 Porsche 911 will be replaced later this year by a car that's as new as its looks are familiar.
It might look nearly identical to the old 997 series, but almost everything about the new 991 series 911 has changed, including the philosophy behind the car itself.
We will know a lot more when we actually drive the car later in the year, but for now, after a day riding shotgun in the new 911 through the mountains of South Africa, it is safe to conclude that this is a 911 like no other we have seen to date.
What Has Porsche Done This Time?
The answer is to start again. You can argue that the changes that turn the 997 into the 991 are just as comprehensive and significant as those that ended the reign of the 993 in 1998. Sure, there is nothing quite so culturally shocking as the abandonment of air cooling for water radiators, but the overall transformation into the 991 is at least as significant.
Perhaps most fundamental is the way the new car is made. Roland Achleitner, the man in charge of reinventing the 911 says, "I am neither an aluminum nor a steel man — I am a correct materials man."
His philosophy explains not only why the bulk of the 991 is now aluminum for lightness where once it was steel, but also why ultrahigh-strength steel has been retained for use in the major crash paths, particularly in the route over the A-pillars and around the passenger safety cell. Had it been built like the 997 the car would now be a minimum of 120 pounds heavier; in fact, it is lighter by a small but still significant (and undisclosed) amount.
The next big change involves the wheelbase. Since its launch in 1963, the 911's short wheelbase has been a defining characteristic of the car much like the flat-6 engine in the trunk.
But now, and for only the fourth time in 48 years, that wheelbase has been extended. By how much we can't say, as our access to the car was made on the condition that we would keep certain details under wraps. We can say that the extra space between the wheels does more than merely provide more legroom in the back; it fundamentally affects the character of the car.
Drivetrain Remains Familiar
The engines are probably the least altered part of the car, but only because the direct-injection flat-6 (unrelated to all previous 911 engines) has only been in production since 2009. Even so, the 3.8-liter engine used in the "S" model gets a useful power gain to 400 horsepower, while the standard motor actually shrinks in size to 3.4 liters but offers 350 hp, 5 more than the old 3.6.
Porsche won't give 0-60-mph times yet, so we'll guess. Figure the base car will get there in around 4.6 seconds and the S in 4.3 seconds, an improvement of 0.1 and 0.2 second respectively. Directing this power to the rear wheels alone (though all-wheel drive is naturally in the pipeline) is Porsche's familiar PDK seven-speed gearbox. Nothing too surprising here, you might think.
That is until we realize that one of the cars charging east from South Africa's Atlantic coast toward the Indian Ocean has a manual version of this transmission. And if you thought a stick-shift PDK was a contradiction in terms, you are not alone. But there it was, complete with three pedals and seven speeds. Porsche hasn't actually said it's going to use this gearbox in production cars, nor did it talk about any alternative, so read into that what you will.
Electric Steering Invades the 911
Not content with changing the way the 911 is built or extending its wheelbase, Porsche has not been afraid to meddle with the 911's most precious possession, one even more key to the car's character than its flat-6 engine. It has replaced the hydraulic power steering used by every 911 since assistance was introduced in 1989, with an electric system.
If this sounds like a minor, backstage detail, it's not. We have yet to drive a car that's been improved by electric steering, and driven plenty that have been ruined by it.
Moreover, Achleitner freely admits that the steering of a 911 is "the most important thing to get right." He says that he spoke to a huge number of suppliers and that ZF got the job because its system is so good, "you would not be able to tell it is electric."
It might look nearly identical to the old 997 series, but almost everything about the new 991 series 911 has changed, including the philosophy behind the car itself.
We will know a lot more when we actually drive the car later in the year, but for now, after a day riding shotgun in the new 911 through the mountains of South Africa, it is safe to conclude that this is a 911 like no other we have seen to date.
What Has Porsche Done This Time?
The answer is to start again. You can argue that the changes that turn the 997 into the 991 are just as comprehensive and significant as those that ended the reign of the 993 in 1998. Sure, there is nothing quite so culturally shocking as the abandonment of air cooling for water radiators, but the overall transformation into the 991 is at least as significant.
Perhaps most fundamental is the way the new car is made. Roland Achleitner, the man in charge of reinventing the 911 says, "I am neither an aluminum nor a steel man — I am a correct materials man."
His philosophy explains not only why the bulk of the 991 is now aluminum for lightness where once it was steel, but also why ultrahigh-strength steel has been retained for use in the major crash paths, particularly in the route over the A-pillars and around the passenger safety cell. Had it been built like the 997 the car would now be a minimum of 120 pounds heavier; in fact, it is lighter by a small but still significant (and undisclosed) amount.
The next big change involves the wheelbase. Since its launch in 1963, the 911's short wheelbase has been a defining characteristic of the car much like the flat-6 engine in the trunk.
But now, and for only the fourth time in 48 years, that wheelbase has been extended. By how much we can't say, as our access to the car was made on the condition that we would keep certain details under wraps. We can say that the extra space between the wheels does more than merely provide more legroom in the back; it fundamentally affects the character of the car.
Drivetrain Remains Familiar
The engines are probably the least altered part of the car, but only because the direct-injection flat-6 (unrelated to all previous 911 engines) has only been in production since 2009. Even so, the 3.8-liter engine used in the "S" model gets a useful power gain to 400 horsepower, while the standard motor actually shrinks in size to 3.4 liters but offers 350 hp, 5 more than the old 3.6.
Porsche won't give 0-60-mph times yet, so we'll guess. Figure the base car will get there in around 4.6 seconds and the S in 4.3 seconds, an improvement of 0.1 and 0.2 second respectively. Directing this power to the rear wheels alone (though all-wheel drive is naturally in the pipeline) is Porsche's familiar PDK seven-speed gearbox. Nothing too surprising here, you might think.
That is until we realize that one of the cars charging east from South Africa's Atlantic coast toward the Indian Ocean has a manual version of this transmission. And if you thought a stick-shift PDK was a contradiction in terms, you are not alone. But there it was, complete with three pedals and seven speeds. Porsche hasn't actually said it's going to use this gearbox in production cars, nor did it talk about any alternative, so read into that what you will.
Electric Steering Invades the 911
Not content with changing the way the 911 is built or extending its wheelbase, Porsche has not been afraid to meddle with the 911's most precious possession, one even more key to the car's character than its flat-6 engine. It has replaced the hydraulic power steering used by every 911 since assistance was introduced in 1989, with an electric system.
If this sounds like a minor, backstage detail, it's not. We have yet to drive a car that's been improved by electric steering, and driven plenty that have been ruined by it.
Moreover, Achleitner freely admits that the steering of a 911 is "the most important thing to get right." He says that he spoke to a huge number of suppliers and that ZF got the job because its system is so good, "you would not be able to tell it is electric."
For the full article and awesome images follow to Inside Line here:
First Ride: 2012 Porsche 911
Jun 30, 2011 | 12:30 PM
#263
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,454
From: Pennsylvania
Interesting to see how the engine cover will open. And Ludas, don't be worried. Porsche just came out with an experimental cruise control for the Panamera (only a prototype so far) which controls all the braking and throttle on demand. It significantly boosts fuel economy, and helps them meet all regulations, which is why they're even thinking about it. But the head of the project said there will never, ever be a Porsche that steers itself, because steering is one of the most important parts of a Porsche. I don't think they'd screw that up with the 991. They know what they're doing.
Jun 30, 2011 | 01:16 PM
#264
Watch this space.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,211
Oh look! Heated and cooled seats - precisely what comes to mind when I think of Porsche...
PFFFFFT
Fail. The need to appease the uber-luxe crowd annoys the shit out of me. Make the Panamera uber-luxe. Hell, the Cayenne, too. Just leave the damn 911 alone.
PFFFFFT
Fail. The need to appease the uber-luxe crowd annoys the shit out of me. Make the Panamera uber-luxe. Hell, the Cayenne, too. Just leave the damn 911 alone.
Jun 30, 2011 | 02:07 PM
#265
I need pos rep like Hulkamania NOW!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,348
From: Madison Wisconsin
Jul 1, 2011 | 09:42 AM
#266
Thread Starter
| Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 31,554
From: Zoo York
Autocar drives the new 911
First aluminium-bodied 911, Lighter, Lower, Faster
An all new Porsche 911 will be revealed later this year – and Autocar joined the development team in South Africa to sample the car.
The new 911, codename 991, is only the third all new design in the car’s incomparable 48 year history. The first of the three most critical departures between it and its forebears is that this is the first 911 to be built chiefly from aluminium.
The second difference is that the wheelbase has been extended by a substantial (but currently secret) amount. Two-thirds of the extra space between the wheels is located behind the driver, although it remains a fundamentally two-seat car. Project manager August Achleitner insists the car’s character and agility have not been compromised.
But if fiddling with a 911’s wheelbase is courting controversy, changing the way it steers might be seen by purists as punching it in the face. The third reason this 911 is like no other before is that hydraulic power steering has been dropped for an electro-mechanical system.
Achleitner insists: ‘If you drove this car you would never know it did not have hydraulic steering. Believe me, I know how important this is.”
The 991 is lighter than the car it replaces by dozens of kilos, despite bigger, heavier wheels, tyres and brakes and more robust crash structures. It’s also very slightly lower.
But some things have not changed so much. While there is not a single interchangeable part in the suspension, the architectural concept remains the same. You’ll find struts at the front and a multi-link arrangement at the back. Relative spring rates have been slightly increased while the damping has been backed off a little, in pursuit of better small bump isolation. The front track has been widened by a similar amount to that which helped transform the dynamic behaviour of the current 997 GT3 RS.
Only the powertrain remains familiar, and even here there have been big changes. While the ‘S’ continues to displace 3.8-litres, the standard car’s capacity has been reduced to 3.4-litres. In fact its bore and stroke are identical to those of a Boxster S, though different cams and a new exhaust provide more power – 350bhp at the moment, though homologation has yet to be completed. The power of the 3.8 rises to 400bhp and the rev limit of both engines increases by 200rpm to 7800rpm.
The PDK double clutch auto has been sharpened up again but it is the manual that might be introduced that breaks new ground. In effect it is a manually controlled single clutch version of PDK which means, for the first time in any manual production car I can think of, seven forward speeds. In fact the first six ratios are identical to the auto, though a slightly shorter, more sporting top gear is fitted.
The ramifications go far beyond the extra cog. This means the old gearbox is no more, so Porsche’s Motorsport colleagues working on the next generation of GT3s down in Weissach have nothing to strap to the old race-based flat six that’s powered all their cars since 1999. So this noble motor has been retired, presumably to be replaced by the somewhat simpler, cheaper, more modern and unrelated direct injection engine used by all other 911s. Quite what will be done to it for the new GT3 remains to be seen.
I jump into the passenger seat of the 3.8-litre ‘S’ and exhort Herr Achleitner to drive me back down the mountain as fast as he possibly can. A quick glance around the interior reveals Panamera style and switches, providing a substantial step up in both quality and efficacy from the 997; then he’s off.
More power and less weight means the old Carrera S’s 0-62mph time of 4.7sec is going to be toast. Porsche hasn’t done the numbers yet, but my money is on 4.5sec for the S and 4.8sec for the 3.4-litre car.
What I notice is the disconnect between the savagery with which the car attacks each corner and the almost complete tranquillity in the cockpit. What struck me most was how easy it appeared to drive the car on the limit, and how unflappable was its composure.
It seems to move the game on even from the lofty heights achieved by the 997, but if you’re looking for me to deliver a definitive verdict from the passenger seat, you’re asking the wrong bloke. It was a masterly performance, enough to make me desperate to find out more about what is, clearly, an extraordinary car and, I have little doubt, a great Porsche.
But is it still a 911? If it is, my sense is that it will be a rather different one – even more capable, usable, spacious, comfortable and quiet. But whether this has been achieved at the expense of some of that magical 997 ability to make you feel hardwired into the road surface, it is simply impossible to say without a steering wheel in your hands.
Andrew Frankel
The new 911, codename 991, is only the third all new design in the car’s incomparable 48 year history. The first of the three most critical departures between it and its forebears is that this is the first 911 to be built chiefly from aluminium.
The second difference is that the wheelbase has been extended by a substantial (but currently secret) amount. Two-thirds of the extra space between the wheels is located behind the driver, although it remains a fundamentally two-seat car. Project manager August Achleitner insists the car’s character and agility have not been compromised.
But if fiddling with a 911’s wheelbase is courting controversy, changing the way it steers might be seen by purists as punching it in the face. The third reason this 911 is like no other before is that hydraulic power steering has been dropped for an electro-mechanical system.
Achleitner insists: ‘If you drove this car you would never know it did not have hydraulic steering. Believe me, I know how important this is.”
The 991 is lighter than the car it replaces by dozens of kilos, despite bigger, heavier wheels, tyres and brakes and more robust crash structures. It’s also very slightly lower.
But some things have not changed so much. While there is not a single interchangeable part in the suspension, the architectural concept remains the same. You’ll find struts at the front and a multi-link arrangement at the back. Relative spring rates have been slightly increased while the damping has been backed off a little, in pursuit of better small bump isolation. The front track has been widened by a similar amount to that which helped transform the dynamic behaviour of the current 997 GT3 RS.
Only the powertrain remains familiar, and even here there have been big changes. While the ‘S’ continues to displace 3.8-litres, the standard car’s capacity has been reduced to 3.4-litres. In fact its bore and stroke are identical to those of a Boxster S, though different cams and a new exhaust provide more power – 350bhp at the moment, though homologation has yet to be completed. The power of the 3.8 rises to 400bhp and the rev limit of both engines increases by 200rpm to 7800rpm.
The PDK double clutch auto has been sharpened up again but it is the manual that might be introduced that breaks new ground. In effect it is a manually controlled single clutch version of PDK which means, for the first time in any manual production car I can think of, seven forward speeds. In fact the first six ratios are identical to the auto, though a slightly shorter, more sporting top gear is fitted.
The ramifications go far beyond the extra cog. This means the old gearbox is no more, so Porsche’s Motorsport colleagues working on the next generation of GT3s down in Weissach have nothing to strap to the old race-based flat six that’s powered all their cars since 1999. So this noble motor has been retired, presumably to be replaced by the somewhat simpler, cheaper, more modern and unrelated direct injection engine used by all other 911s. Quite what will be done to it for the new GT3 remains to be seen.
I jump into the passenger seat of the 3.8-litre ‘S’ and exhort Herr Achleitner to drive me back down the mountain as fast as he possibly can. A quick glance around the interior reveals Panamera style and switches, providing a substantial step up in both quality and efficacy from the 997; then he’s off.
More power and less weight means the old Carrera S’s 0-62mph time of 4.7sec is going to be toast. Porsche hasn’t done the numbers yet, but my money is on 4.5sec for the S and 4.8sec for the 3.4-litre car.
What I notice is the disconnect between the savagery with which the car attacks each corner and the almost complete tranquillity in the cockpit. What struck me most was how easy it appeared to drive the car on the limit, and how unflappable was its composure.
It seems to move the game on even from the lofty heights achieved by the 997, but if you’re looking for me to deliver a definitive verdict from the passenger seat, you’re asking the wrong bloke. It was a masterly performance, enough to make me desperate to find out more about what is, clearly, an extraordinary car and, I have little doubt, a great Porsche.
But is it still a 911? If it is, my sense is that it will be a rather different one – even more capable, usable, spacious, comfortable and quiet. But whether this has been achieved at the expense of some of that magical 997 ability to make you feel hardwired into the road surface, it is simply impossible to say without a steering wheel in your hands.
Andrew Frankel
Jul 1, 2011 | 01:10 PM
#269
Teamspeed Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,454
From: Pennsylvania
The red ones aren't ceramics. The black ones look like they're on a C2, and the reds look like they're on a C2S. Remember: this South African press event was held way back in February, and Porsche told all the press to keep quiet until now. These cars are just prototypes, there are still things that can change. BTW, Mr.August said the electric steering feels exactly the same as the 997's, and they know how important the steering feel is.
Jul 1, 2011 | 03:20 PM
#270
Teamspeed Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 779
From: Washington State
I agree. What, there aren't enough luxury GT cars on the market?
I do love the interior though. As long as Porsche thinks "light" when it comes to the GT models...