Chris Harris's Rant: How Ferrari spins
#121
02-17-2011, 01:28 AM
I found Chris Harris's article an incredibly interesting read, (a) because I really respect his opinion and despite him driving for Porsche he seems balanced with regards to most car marques, and (b) the article kind of confirms what has been hinted at in many magazines.
Carrara, I want to say how much I enjoy your renderings and it is obvious you are a big porsche enthusiast. I'm not quite sure why everyone jumps all over your posts and keeps attacking your age - kinda beating a dead horse. I will say, however, that I will echo other posters' sentiments that it is slightly disingenuous to paint Porsche in such angelic light and tarnish Ferrari that much.
It's like Ferrari's formula one "team orders" fiasco - ferrari was certainly guilty of it, but it's not like other teams aren't doing the exact same thing. Perhaps, just like road testing, Ferrari are just the most obnoxious about it.
Nissan produced a still farcical sounding N-ring time that no other independent tester could get even close to replicating. Lamborghini only gives dry weights of their Superleggera models to sound more competitive with Ferrari and Porsche's lightweight cars. Renault Espace claims to have 4 more cubic feet of interior space - so long as you remove the front seats. Mercedes was only able to create their legendary "silver arrow" racecar by paint stripping the surface because they couldn't meet the weight requirements. The McLaren F1 was only able to reach its 242 mph top speed in their experimental pre-production model which lacked luggage and trunk lining, spare fuses, and this thing called a "rev limiter." BMW attempted to homologate their E46 M3 GTR V8 by making only 3 roadgoing E46 V8s, one of which mysteriously disappeared. Hell, every car manufacturer is guilty of crank hp figures - don't drivetrain losses and wheel hp mean anything anymore? Just like they say in "The Wire": "Everybody jukes the stats."
And Porsche? While I love the brand and they certainly underestimate their 0-60 times, etc, they are far from innocent and can be pretty adept at rule bending: think 917 oil pan design being too low but porsche raising the car during scrutineering; think 993 GT1 being a non-homologated purpose built racecar; think the 904 running a 4/6/8 cylinder engine in the same chassis on the same field and the motorsport governing body being too scared to disqualify porsche because who the hell would watch the race without them; think the GT3R hybrid not officially being part of the 24H N-ring but had it finished it would be eligible to be on podium; think porsche bending the rules for transmissions and creating the first dual clutch gearbox; think porsche trying to boost their in-gear acceleration stats and emissions figures for the 959 by giving it 5 gears plus a "G" gear instead of 6 gears - and it still didn't pass US regulations.
I don't condone Ferrari's ridiculous bullying nature, and as has been said by other posters (and is my personal feeling especially with Ferraris and cars like the GTR) it only serves to worsen the image of a car that is already so fundamentally great. But hardly any carmaker can cast the first stone.
Carrara, I want to say how much I enjoy your renderings and it is obvious you are a big porsche enthusiast. I'm not quite sure why everyone jumps all over your posts and keeps attacking your age - kinda beating a dead horse. I will say, however, that I will echo other posters' sentiments that it is slightly disingenuous to paint Porsche in such angelic light and tarnish Ferrari that much.
It's like Ferrari's formula one "team orders" fiasco - ferrari was certainly guilty of it, but it's not like other teams aren't doing the exact same thing. Perhaps, just like road testing, Ferrari are just the most obnoxious about it.
Nissan produced a still farcical sounding N-ring time that no other independent tester could get even close to replicating. Lamborghini only gives dry weights of their Superleggera models to sound more competitive with Ferrari and Porsche's lightweight cars. Renault Espace claims to have 4 more cubic feet of interior space - so long as you remove the front seats. Mercedes was only able to create their legendary "silver arrow" racecar by paint stripping the surface because they couldn't meet the weight requirements. The McLaren F1 was only able to reach its 242 mph top speed in their experimental pre-production model which lacked luggage and trunk lining, spare fuses, and this thing called a "rev limiter." BMW attempted to homologate their E46 M3 GTR V8 by making only 3 roadgoing E46 V8s, one of which mysteriously disappeared. Hell, every car manufacturer is guilty of crank hp figures - don't drivetrain losses and wheel hp mean anything anymore? Just like they say in "The Wire": "Everybody jukes the stats."
And Porsche? While I love the brand and they certainly underestimate their 0-60 times, etc, they are far from innocent and can be pretty adept at rule bending: think 917 oil pan design being too low but porsche raising the car during scrutineering; think 993 GT1 being a non-homologated purpose built racecar; think the 904 running a 4/6/8 cylinder engine in the same chassis on the same field and the motorsport governing body being too scared to disqualify porsche because who the hell would watch the race without them; think the GT3R hybrid not officially being part of the 24H N-ring but had it finished it would be eligible to be on podium; think porsche bending the rules for transmissions and creating the first dual clutch gearbox; think porsche trying to boost their in-gear acceleration stats and emissions figures for the 959 by giving it 5 gears plus a "G" gear instead of 6 gears - and it still didn't pass US regulations.
I don't condone Ferrari's ridiculous bullying nature, and as has been said by other posters (and is my personal feeling especially with Ferraris and cars like the GTR) it only serves to worsen the image of a car that is already so fundamentally great. But hardly any carmaker can cast the first stone.
#122
02-17-2011, 07:11 AM
^^ There were actually two road going 993 GT1s, and a member here has one of them. 
And the whole point of Group B was to build the most insane technologically advanced car you could, which both Porsche and Ferrari did. 
I'm going to have to agree with you a little. Don't get me wrong, Ferrari is (well maybe used to be) my second favorite automaker. I'm not saying they don't make awesome cars, I'm saying their cars are so good already, why would they want to do this? I'm sure so many people follow Ferrari already that none of what Chris Harris says, or any of the 'slightly altered' press cars will effect their decision.
BTW, I wasn't exactly quoting any type of driving experience, I just meant that Ferrari should play fair. However, I'll listen to some of your points.
And the whole point of Group B was to build the most insane technologically advanced car you could, which both Porsche and Ferrari did. There will always be 20 guys lined up to have EVO test their car if Ferrari doesn't want him to have a Press car. Hell he can come drive one of mine but I'll never own the newer shit until they make it pretty again
Greatest automaker in the world?
Porsches are fantastic cars don't get me wrong, I've had a few. Do not discount an automaker like Ferrari without any actually experience in them.
You need possibly a ride in a Ferrari to actually have a real comparison in your mind. Or as Stroked has stated. Drive them first and then and only then can you comment on how the cars handle.
Funniest thing about this statement is most of the F40 drivers that have owned them really didn't like driving them. A touch interesting that this is one more of your opinions that has been read somewhere in a book.
Ferrari has been padding the numbers for years and they've been sold out for just as long. Their cars weigh more than published consistently. They constantly make more cars than they publish they will. I knew this yet I still bought their brand. They make an INSANE CAR. I can't tell people this enough. Some of their cars are so pretty I just will sit and look at them. The newer cars drive so unbelievable you almost forget you are doing the speeds you are. Who cares about all this crap spewed about too many nannies blah blah blah flappy paddles blah blah blah. People are idiots if they don't think these cars are built to be pure masters at the game. Does Porsche build a fantastic car as well? Yes they do.
Carrara please spend less time reading and when you do come of age do whatever you can to drive or ride in all of the beasts. I don't know if mommy or daddy work for Porsche or not but please stop discounting a brand you do not know.
I know and I'm sorry.
Harris will still get to drive these cars. Evo won't fire him. He's been doing this way too long and truthfully Ferrari had this coming imho. The problem is as I said earlier is lots of automakers lie about crap. GTR? The Lexus LFA, come on Lexus said all cars sold when no one can find but 1 or 2 guys that have.
If you don't slant the audience in your favor you will start losing an audience.
Greatest automaker in the world?
Porsches are fantastic cars don't get me wrong, I've had a few. Do not discount an automaker like Ferrari without any actually experience in them.
You need possibly a ride in a Ferrari to actually have a real comparison in your mind. Or as Stroked has stated. Drive them first and then and only then can you comment on how the cars handle.
Funniest thing about this statement is most of the F40 drivers that have owned them really didn't like driving them. A touch interesting that this is one more of your opinions that has been read somewhere in a book.
Ferrari has been padding the numbers for years and they've been sold out for just as long. Their cars weigh more than published consistently. They constantly make more cars than they publish they will. I knew this yet I still bought their brand. They make an INSANE CAR. I can't tell people this enough. Some of their cars are so pretty I just will sit and look at them. The newer cars drive so unbelievable you almost forget you are doing the speeds you are. Who cares about all this crap spewed about too many nannies blah blah blah flappy paddles blah blah blah. People are idiots if they don't think these cars are built to be pure masters at the game. Does Porsche build a fantastic car as well? Yes they do.
Carrara please spend less time reading and when you do come of age do whatever you can to drive or ride in all of the beasts. I don't know if mommy or daddy work for Porsche or not but please stop discounting a brand you do not know.
I know and I'm sorry.Harris will still get to drive these cars. Evo won't fire him. He's been doing this way too long and truthfully Ferrari had this coming imho. The problem is as I said earlier is lots of automakers lie about crap. GTR? The Lexus LFA, come on Lexus said all cars sold when no one can find but 1 or 2 guys that have.
If you don't slant the audience in your favor you will start losing an audience.
BTW, I wasn't exactly quoting any type of driving experience, I just meant that Ferrari should play fair. However, I'll listen to some of your points.
Last edited by Carrera; 02-17-2011 at 07:14 AM.
#123
02-17-2011, 10:28 AM
Maybe I was too quick to come to carrara's defense since he kinda missed the point of my post. I am aware of the road 993 gt1s but only building less than a handful is part of the point I was trying to make.
Nevermind, carry on everyone.
Nevermind, carry on everyone.
#124
02-17-2011, 11:14 AM
This thread is why I don't believe most of the media crap
I had the chance of driving some fine cars, and while most were described as MIND BLOWING by the media, I only found that very few actually are!
most brands play with their results to try and win battles, it's just to what extent do they take it (IMO)
Having said that, some (or most) ferraris are still badass, and I would LOVE to own one someday!
-AJ
I had the chance of driving some fine cars, and while most were described as MIND BLOWING by the media, I only found that very few actually are!
most brands play with their results to try and win battles, it's just to what extent do they take it (IMO)
Having said that, some (or most) ferraris are still badass, and I would LOVE to own one someday!
-AJ
#125
02-17-2011, 11:35 AM
This thread is why I don't believe most of the media crap
I had the chance of driving some fine cars, and while most were described as MIND BLOWING by the media, I only found that very few actually are!
most brands play with their results to try and win battles, it's just to what extent do they take it (IMO)
Having said that, some (or most) ferraris are still badass, and I would LOVE to own one someday!
-AJ
I had the chance of driving some fine cars, and while most were described as MIND BLOWING by the media, I only found that very few actually are!
most brands play with their results to try and win battles, it's just to what extent do they take it (IMO)
Having said that, some (or most) ferraris are still badass, and I would LOVE to own one someday!
-AJ
Carrara I feel so blessed that you "guess" you will agree with me. Sorry kid I've always been on your side but once your britches are a bit bigger and you've taken your drivers test I'm off your Christmas list on off your side until you come to your senses.
#127
02-17-2011, 11:53 AM
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Tiburon CA, Kent OH
Posts: 291
In all honesty, this really shouldn't be a shock to anyone, there is cheating or "rule bending" in every part of life, cars, government, sports, finance in all honesty we live in an imperfect do I car thats it happening in auto makers, yes and no, its not the worst kind of cheating in any way shape or form, is it bad they mess with 0-60 or 0-100 numbers kinda, but I would be alot more pissed if they where lying about brake issues(toyota) or tires or something that could cause a catastrophic failure that might hurt my car or me.
Losing by a few tenths of a second at the drag strip really doesn't matter to me, its how the car makes me feel, what its really like to drive. If all you mad about is not having an honest n-ring time, you probably shouldn't be buying the car.
The whole porsche ferrari debate seems so irrelevant, no i have never driven either one, so i cant account to which one is better and why, but i know for a fact they are both amazing cars,
dana hit the nail on the head when he said porsche is german utilitarian, which is great, and i admire them for making a care that is relatively unchanged for years.
and for ferrari there just purely sexy on wheels, and i can comment on that fact lol, there the standard that all automakers seem to purse. There is nothing more beautiful then a classic ferrari.
I challenge carrara or any one for that matter to go to the pepple beach concurs de'elegance and see the ferraris there with the v12's with the plexi class covers over the hood that lets you see that beautiful bank or carburetors and not think its the most amazing thing you have ever seen.
Losing by a few tenths of a second at the drag strip really doesn't matter to me, its how the car makes me feel, what its really like to drive. If all you mad about is not having an honest n-ring time, you probably shouldn't be buying the car.
The whole porsche ferrari debate seems so irrelevant, no i have never driven either one, so i cant account to which one is better and why, but i know for a fact they are both amazing cars,
dana hit the nail on the head when he said porsche is german utilitarian, which is great, and i admire them for making a care that is relatively unchanged for years.
and for ferrari there just purely sexy on wheels, and i can comment on that fact lol, there the standard that all automakers seem to purse. There is nothing more beautiful then a classic ferrari.
I challenge carrara or any one for that matter to go to the pepple beach concurs de'elegance and see the ferraris there with the v12's with the plexi class covers over the hood that lets you see that beautiful bank or carburetors and not think its the most amazing thing you have ever seen.
#128
02-17-2011, 12:31 PM
am a part-time (for fun) journalist for Top Gear Magazine in my country, and have been to 4 big Porsche events to launch new models. most recently for the GT2RS last October.
in each case, they gave me the keys, a map (or a route to plot on the GPS,) a time to be back by, and basically said "hope you enjoy our car".
have never been to a Ferrari event.
#129
02-17-2011, 12:40 PM
Always love what Harris have to say. Ferrari may be a shitty company to for journalists to deal with it. But they sure knows how to make pretty cars.
#130
02-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Ferrari stopped existing with the 512BB (Carburators).
It would be much more appropriate to call them FIAT now...
What Harris "discovered" just now it has been know here in Italy for ages...
Better late than never...
It would be much more appropriate to call them FIAT now...
What Harris "discovered" just now it has been know here in Italy for ages...
Better late than never...