The Official McLaren F1 Thread
#621
06-12-2011, 07:18 PM
Three are in Brunei still (LM1, LM4 & LM5) the first two of that trio are painted black with graphics, not orange. Another one is owned by Yoshio Tsuzuki in Japan (LM2) and kept on display in the ZAZ Museum. The last of the production LMs currently belongs to Ralph Lauren and is on display right now in the Musee d'Arte in Paris until August. The McLaren factory have retained possession of the LM prototype still - it is chassis XP1 LM, making for a total of 6 actually.
There are also currently 5 F1 GTRs that have been resprayed in Orange like Mark's. The chassis numbers are 07R, 08R, 11R, 14R and finally 16R. These tend to confuse a lot of people, but there are enough details that set them apart from LMs for the sharp eyed viewer that it isn't too difficult to tell the difference. Here's an image I compiled showing all of them, along with an LM stuck in for reference too.
>8^)
ER
There are also currently 5 F1 GTRs that have been resprayed in Orange like Mark's. The chassis numbers are 07R, 08R, 11R, 14R and finally 16R. These tend to confuse a lot of people, but there are enough details that set them apart from LMs for the sharp eyed viewer that it isn't too difficult to tell the difference. Here's an image I compiled showing all of them, along with an LM stuck in for reference too.
>8^)
ER
#624
06-12-2011, 09:41 PM
Thanks guys - glad to be here too. 
..and there is definitely some level of insanity that goes along with it.
While I'm here - great shots of #044 taken at the Newport Concours in Rhode Island a few weeks ago. These were shared courtesy of Kompressed on Flickr.
As usual - both are clickable for larger versions.
>8^)
ER
..and there is definitely some level of insanity that goes along with it.
While I'm here - great shots of #044 taken at the Newport Concours in Rhode Island a few weeks ago. These were shared courtesy of Kompressed on Flickr.
As usual - both are clickable for larger versions.
>8^)
ER
#625
06-13-2011, 01:06 AM
Sorry for my ignorance, but what are the main differences between the GTR's and the LM other than being race spec?
#626
06-13-2011, 05:36 AM
No apology necessary - I am always happy to help sort through any confusion with these cars.
In terms that most people can relate to, the F1 LM is essentially a Challenge Stradale. Ferrari made the 360 - McLaren made the F1. Then Ferrari made the 360 Challenge to allow customers to go racing and McLaren built the F1 GTR for the same reason. Then Ferrari decided a road version of their race car was in order and built the Challenge Stradale. McLaren were interested in building a road version of their GTR to commemorate the results from Le Mans in 1995 and thus the F1 LM was born. Of course there is no direct comparison between a 360 and an F1 but the evolution of each car followed a similar course for similar purposes and produced similar end products.
There are both visual and technical differences between the GTRs and LMs, but McLaren did their best to retain as much of the rawness of the GTR as possible when developing the LMs.
The primary difference between a GTR and LM are that the GTRs were developed specifically as racing cars, and the LMs specifically as road cars. As a byproduct of this, the GTRs only have two seats, with the 3rd seat to the right of the driver being taken up by electronics, wiring and often an on-board fire suppression system. The LM was built to retain all three seats as found in the F1 road cars.
Compare this GTR interior to that of an LM:
- 
The GTRs also had a built-in roll cages however a couple of the cars have since had those removed to make things easier in their non-competitive life.
LMs have black-faced analog gauges on the dash with the "F1 LM" logo printed on the tachometer whereas the GTRs retain their built-in digital information display screens in place of the more traditional gauges.
The GTRs were hampered by air restrictors on the engine intake in order to make them legal for competition. This capped power right at around 600 hp for them, which was even less than the regular road cars had. The LMs used an unrestricted version of the GTR-spec engine that pushed out something close to 680 hp.
Both GTR and LM use the same gearbox with straight cut gears - quite loud and intrusive to the driver and passengers. No difference here.
Suspension components were mostly the same between the two cars but geometry would have been changed on the LMs to raise the ride height and some damping and spring rate changes likely were done to give a slightly more compliant ride.
Visually there's more ways to disprove that a car is not an LM than there is to identify one. Meaning, that if you study the features that are present on the LM's, it's easy to say what's not a true LM.
The most obvious thing are the small intake port on the left side ahead of the rear wheel which you won't find on the LM, but was present on the GTR's. All the GTR's that I have seen which have received the LM-look still have this intake on the side. It's a dead giveaway. Don't be confused though - as both LM and GTR will have the large duct on the opposite side that feeds the oil cooler. This is not found on F1 road cars which helps to differentiate the ones that have been fitted with the High Downforce Kit.
The other major visual difference can be seen from the front. Notice the center hood vents on the three variations in the photo I shared. The '95 GTR #07R looks no different than a standard F1 road car. The LM's front cover adds a large vent opening near the top. To confuse matters a bit, for some reason #08R was fitted with this part too which it did not originally wear. The '96 GTR has a similar vent, but it's mounted much lower on the cover and isn't a perfect rectangle as it has a small drop down section in the center. One of the '96 GTRs also has the extra roof scoop which wouldn't be seen on an LM.
True LM's have smooth rocker panels/side skirts that hang almost straight down and run from front to back between the wheels. This mirrors what you see on the '95 GTRs, but if you look closely at the '96 GTRs you'll see they instead have small horizontal wings that stick out from the rocker panels aft of the door line.
LM's have the locking fuel filler only on the left side c-pillar just as seen on the F1 road car. Their other c-pillar is smooth like the road cars. Most of the converted GTR's just appear to have a blank carbon fiber circle screwed in place on the left, and their fuel filler is on the right side c-pillar. Again, GTR 08R breaks the rule by having filler doors on both sides.
LM's have glass windows through the engine compartment allowing for internal rear view mirrors. Converted '96 GTRs don't/wouldn't have those. '95 GTRs did have those windows still so it's not always a sure thing with this clue.
LM's have a beautiful logo engraved into the side plates of the rear wing which has the "GTR" logo with a wreath around it and "24 HEURES DU MANS" with "1995 WINNERS" below. You will not find that on any of the converted GTRs. Here's an image:
I can see where that might lead to confusion for some people, but remember that it was the GTRs that placed 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 13th in 1995 - the LMs were never raced. In fact some are never driven.
While not always true, LM's can actually have "F1 LM" milled into one of the spokes on each magnesium OZ wheel. On some, but not all GTRs, you will find "GTR" or the wheel maker "OZ" painted onto one of the spokes of each wheel instead. There are early pics of the LM prototype wearing wheels that have the painted on "OZ" logo and LM2 wears a set of wheels that are completely bare with no markings or engraving. The Black LMs in Brunei wear black wheels that have yellow bands on the spokes where they curve in towards the rim.
LM's wear the 'F1 LM' badge on upper left corner of the rear grille and a lone 'McLaren' badge on the lower right. Most GTRs have the F1/McLaren badge combo on the right side similar to a road car and then a "GTR" logo on the upper left side. #16R breaks the rule here as it has not had a "GTR" badge on the rear grille since it was resprayed in Orange. That work was carried out by McLaren, so I am not sure what happened to the one that was there?
LM's have the same three cut-outs in the center of their front bumper as the GTR's do. On the LM's they are blanked out, however on the GTR's they are somewhat larger and have removable screens.
Every LM I have seen photos of was wearing a black windshield banner that reads "F1LM_____McLaren_____F1LM". GTRs usually have windshield banners too with the GTR logo on them somewhere.
LMs have the standard F1 road car's windscreen wiper fitted. This can also be true for the '95 GTRs which have been converted, but the '96 GTRs have a different wiper that sits at an angle off the left side of the windscreen instead of near the bottom on the right.
There's certainly a few more details that I may be overlooking, but those that I have mentioned here are most of the important ones that you will be able to notice with a glance at most photos or if you were fortunate enough to encounter one in the wild.
Hope all that info helps!
>8^)
ER
In terms that most people can relate to, the F1 LM is essentially a Challenge Stradale. Ferrari made the 360 - McLaren made the F1. Then Ferrari made the 360 Challenge to allow customers to go racing and McLaren built the F1 GTR for the same reason. Then Ferrari decided a road version of their race car was in order and built the Challenge Stradale. McLaren were interested in building a road version of their GTR to commemorate the results from Le Mans in 1995 and thus the F1 LM was born. Of course there is no direct comparison between a 360 and an F1 but the evolution of each car followed a similar course for similar purposes and produced similar end products.
There are both visual and technical differences between the GTRs and LMs, but McLaren did their best to retain as much of the rawness of the GTR as possible when developing the LMs.
The primary difference between a GTR and LM are that the GTRs were developed specifically as racing cars, and the LMs specifically as road cars. As a byproduct of this, the GTRs only have two seats, with the 3rd seat to the right of the driver being taken up by electronics, wiring and often an on-board fire suppression system. The LM was built to retain all three seats as found in the F1 road cars.
Compare this GTR interior to that of an LM:
- 
The GTRs also had a built-in roll cages however a couple of the cars have since had those removed to make things easier in their non-competitive life.
LMs have black-faced analog gauges on the dash with the "F1 LM" logo printed on the tachometer whereas the GTRs retain their built-in digital information display screens in place of the more traditional gauges.
The GTRs were hampered by air restrictors on the engine intake in order to make them legal for competition. This capped power right at around 600 hp for them, which was even less than the regular road cars had. The LMs used an unrestricted version of the GTR-spec engine that pushed out something close to 680 hp.
Both GTR and LM use the same gearbox with straight cut gears - quite loud and intrusive to the driver and passengers. No difference here.
Suspension components were mostly the same between the two cars but geometry would have been changed on the LMs to raise the ride height and some damping and spring rate changes likely were done to give a slightly more compliant ride.
Visually there's more ways to disprove that a car is not an LM than there is to identify one. Meaning, that if you study the features that are present on the LM's, it's easy to say what's not a true LM.
The most obvious thing are the small intake port on the left side ahead of the rear wheel which you won't find on the LM, but was present on the GTR's. All the GTR's that I have seen which have received the LM-look still have this intake on the side. It's a dead giveaway. Don't be confused though - as both LM and GTR will have the large duct on the opposite side that feeds the oil cooler. This is not found on F1 road cars which helps to differentiate the ones that have been fitted with the High Downforce Kit.
The other major visual difference can be seen from the front. Notice the center hood vents on the three variations in the photo I shared. The '95 GTR #07R looks no different than a standard F1 road car. The LM's front cover adds a large vent opening near the top. To confuse matters a bit, for some reason #08R was fitted with this part too which it did not originally wear. The '96 GTR has a similar vent, but it's mounted much lower on the cover and isn't a perfect rectangle as it has a small drop down section in the center. One of the '96 GTRs also has the extra roof scoop which wouldn't be seen on an LM.
True LM's have smooth rocker panels/side skirts that hang almost straight down and run from front to back between the wheels. This mirrors what you see on the '95 GTRs, but if you look closely at the '96 GTRs you'll see they instead have small horizontal wings that stick out from the rocker panels aft of the door line.
LM's have the locking fuel filler only on the left side c-pillar just as seen on the F1 road car. Their other c-pillar is smooth like the road cars. Most of the converted GTR's just appear to have a blank carbon fiber circle screwed in place on the left, and their fuel filler is on the right side c-pillar. Again, GTR 08R breaks the rule by having filler doors on both sides.
LM's have glass windows through the engine compartment allowing for internal rear view mirrors. Converted '96 GTRs don't/wouldn't have those. '95 GTRs did have those windows still so it's not always a sure thing with this clue.
LM's have a beautiful logo engraved into the side plates of the rear wing which has the "GTR" logo with a wreath around it and "24 HEURES DU MANS" with "1995 WINNERS" below. You will not find that on any of the converted GTRs. Here's an image:
I can see where that might lead to confusion for some people, but remember that it was the GTRs that placed 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 13th in 1995 - the LMs were never raced. In fact some are never driven.
While not always true, LM's can actually have "F1 LM" milled into one of the spokes on each magnesium OZ wheel. On some, but not all GTRs, you will find "GTR" or the wheel maker "OZ" painted onto one of the spokes of each wheel instead. There are early pics of the LM prototype wearing wheels that have the painted on "OZ" logo and LM2 wears a set of wheels that are completely bare with no markings or engraving. The Black LMs in Brunei wear black wheels that have yellow bands on the spokes where they curve in towards the rim.
LM's wear the 'F1 LM' badge on upper left corner of the rear grille and a lone 'McLaren' badge on the lower right. Most GTRs have the F1/McLaren badge combo on the right side similar to a road car and then a "GTR" logo on the upper left side. #16R breaks the rule here as it has not had a "GTR" badge on the rear grille since it was resprayed in Orange. That work was carried out by McLaren, so I am not sure what happened to the one that was there?
LM's have the same three cut-outs in the center of their front bumper as the GTR's do. On the LM's they are blanked out, however on the GTR's they are somewhat larger and have removable screens.
Every LM I have seen photos of was wearing a black windshield banner that reads "F1LM_____McLaren_____F1LM". GTRs usually have windshield banners too with the GTR logo on them somewhere.
LMs have the standard F1 road car's windscreen wiper fitted. This can also be true for the '95 GTRs which have been converted, but the '96 GTRs have a different wiper that sits at an angle off the left side of the windscreen instead of near the bottom on the right.
There's certainly a few more details that I may be overlooking, but those that I have mentioned here are most of the important ones that you will be able to notice with a glance at most photos or if you were fortunate enough to encounter one in the wild.
Hope all that info helps!
>8^)
ER
Last edited by Peloton25; 06-13-2011 at 05:37 AM.
#630
06-14-2011, 07:33 AM
